Jul 28, 2010
So the tournament season is in full swing, and I’m looking forward to this year’s BoLSCon – er, sorry: WarGames Con, which kicks off on Thursday in Austin.
INSERT PLUG. Here’s my plug: go, if you’re able to swing it last minute, or plan your trip next year. I’ve been to countless tournaments and hobby events over the years and it was by far the best experience I’ve ever had. It was that good. END PLUG.
Last year I didn’t take my optimized Eldar list due to concerns I had about my Seer Council models. I have them floating on disks and simply wasn’t sure how that would fly with the judges. I’d hate to have made the trip only to find out I couldn’t use half my army.
So, let’s ask the question: is it a Proxy or is it ‘Counts-As?’
This could be a short article; I could stop right here (I ain’t gonna) because the answer is pretty simple: use common sense and ask in advance.
Let’s pretend I wasn’t a wordy-attention-seeking-net-stalker (Hi, Jawaballs!) and move on. I decided to ask the local tournament organizer, the Master Manipulator (every store needs one) for his opinion. Hopefully, this will give you some idea where event judges are coming from. Again, I add this caveat: it’s best to check in advance with the actual organizers.
Let me start off by saying in friendly games, I could care less what everyone does. This is purely my opinion on how I adjudicate in our tournaments. I am all for a well made back story to explain why you are using Sisters of Battle to rep your Dark Angels or something silly like that. That is the great stuff fun that people love doing with this game. Just don’t bring it to my tourneys.
The basis of this conversation really boils down to one question. “Why does it matter?”
I should be able to sit down with anyone at any time and look across the table and have a fairly good idea of what is going on. I should not have to question what my opponent is using for what, or whether or not they may have misunderstood some allies rule or something. When models are being set up across the table, I should have a reasonable confidence I know what they are.
That’s fairly straightforward, yes? Let’s move on – with examples.
When someone asks me if a model is a proxy or ‘counts as,’ I typically respond with the following:
Does that model have a profile or set of rules that is legal in the current game, and those rules are different from what you plan on using? For the most part if the answer to that question is yes, than it’s a proxy.
Let’s look at an example.
What we have here is a loyalist Space Marine, a Blood Angel, to be exact. Everybody knows what a Blood Angel is and what set of rules to apply to it. Moving on…
What we have here is a Space Goat. Some may be aware that Space Goats painted white are Goat Angels of some sort, but let’s face it: this is a homegrown conversion. A proper conversion is ‘Counts-As,’ meaning it can be used for a number of things. There is nothing wrong with using this model: it isn’t a proxy. Let’s recap.
Using an Ultramarine as a Chaos Space Marine, or an Ork, or an Eldar Guardian isn’t appropriate. An Ultramarine as a Chaos Space Marine is a proxy…
…but a Goat Angel is ‘Counts-As.’
See the difference? Space Goats may use parts from both Loyalist and Chaos Space Marines, but they are neither and thus can be used in a variety of ways. Using straight Chaos Space Marines to rep out a new Codex chapter is all well and good at home, but is it appropriate at a tournament where you may be playing a stranger?
I don’t think so. At the very least, I’m sure we can agree it is a gray area.
So why isn’t it okay to use Chaos Space Marines as Loyalist Space Marines? After all, the Goats are pretty chaotic looking; what’s the difference?
Sort it out like this: does a model have a stat line in the Warhammer 40K universe already? If it does, and you use it for something else, that’s a proxy. Goat Marines exist nowhere except Goatboy’s probably warped mind, yet Khorne Berserkers have a color scheme and set of abilities everyone is already familiar with. Using Berserkers as Vanguard isn’t cool.
(For those paying attention, Real Genius’ eyes glazed over after reading that last paragraph!)
But using Chaos Space Marines painted in your own design as Knights of Blood is perfectly cool. We’re all familiar enough with the game to be flexible on a technical proxy like that. It’s a game, after all.
Everyone is going to have an opinion on what’s okay and what isn’t, so again, check with your Tournament Organizers, but to my mind gamers are a forgiving lot. After all, most of us came up with rules for our toys when we were kids; imagination is part and parcel of the hobby. As a last example, Rob over at Spikey Bits has a pretty fantastic Ork Guard. I wouldn’t have a problem playing it and I daresay neither would you; it’s a beautiful labor of love. But what if some dude dropped a ton of unpainted Orks on the table and said, “Okay, this is Guard today, and that Trukk is a Manticore.”
That’s all I’ve got, just a few thoughts to spark conversation and perhaps avoid an uncomfortable last-minute scramble or two. I’m aware some of you may disagree with this perspective; let’s hear where you are coming from.
On Tuesday afternoon, I’ll be posting pictures of my Team Tournament Eldar for the first time. It’s heavily converted and painted to the best of my ability, so drop by and let me know what you think. Hopefully you’ll agree they’re ‘Counts-As!’
http://strictlyaverage.blogspot.com/
Take care – Brent
PS: If some of you are thinking to yourselves, “Gee, was this whole thing a cunning way to snub Jawaballs and Goatboy, who are teaming up for the BoLSCon 2010 Team Tournament, a victory over which obviously belongs to Fritz and Brent?” I’d have to reply:
It must be terrible to be so cynical. You’re way off. I wouldn’t do a thing like that.
Okay, maybe.
(Can someone wake up Real Genius?)
Brent, I've decided you're my new favorite internet person.
I painted my Loyalist looking models in the colours of the Sons of Horus and use the Choas dex for then cause its suits my playstyle and fluff better then the Loyalist dex.
I use a converted model that looks like Horus as Abaddon and I use the First Company (black Marines) as Berzerkers since they are First COmpany and they can fight better.
Everything is WYSIWYG and noone seems to have a problem with it cause the models look good nad I put a lot of effort in them.
What do you say does that is 'counts as' or 'proxy'?
I say its counts as.
informative and well thought out
thanks
Counts as and proxies are fine when you are practicing an army. People using Chaos marines as models and then Blood Angel rules bothers me. It's for one reason and one reason only: the rules. If you are a chaos army, with chaos symbology, why aren't you using the chaos marines codex? Because it's not as good as the Blood Angels one.
Same with the ork guard army. Do all his orks have lasguns too? Why is he using all ork stuff to represent a guard army (and probably not 100% converted). Because, the guard list has been wildly more successful.
Do these conversion pieces and fancy armies, but man up and use the proper rules for them. You have chaos symbols plastered all over your stuff and are in power armor? You're Chaos Marines. You have ork models using what basically amounts to looted wagons? Use Ork rules.
I would say a good 99.9% of the counts as and proxy armies are PURELY for powergaming and win purposes. Not for style.
If the basic model is a Marine and you are fielding a Marine army, and all it's wargear is WYSISYG, then there should be no problems. Remember, you have to tell your opponent which army (i.e. Codex) you are using when you first begin. That alone should be all the info your opponent needs to figure out which army you are playing.
Don't forget that the fluff is rife with examples of Good Marines going evil. Not all of them immediately change their armor or develop mutations. It's perfectly accessible to use a loyal Marine model as a Chaos Marine.
The opposite is not as easy to justify in terms of fluff but should be allowed of the wargear is WYSISYG.
As long as you are not modeling for advantage and you are at least trying to keep things similar (Marine for Marine, Orc for Ork, etc.) then there really is no gray area.
I'd say Counts-As as well.
I think it becomes a harder distinction to make when you're dealing entirely in Power Armor, but you've made an effort to distinguish your army by the paintjob…
It sounds like a cool army to me!
I'm an Empty Digital Headache I am!
Lines on your computer screen; I'm not even sure if I exist…
I did it pure for playstyle and fluff.
I dont like the CHaos models but I love the Heresy books so I went for the style were they were about to turn aainst the Emperor.
The Berzerkers you can recognise really good cause they are black and the rest is green, they got there chainswords and all so there is no problem with other stuff.
The Eye of Horus is also on all the models and vehicles.
I just love the books and the fluff
No, no, don't worry, I grabbed a cup of coffee and took a deep breath at the first paragraph!
You'll love my Marines Exemplar army. They are a non-Codex chapter, their home world is Necris and their colors are black and red. I'm using the Space Wolves codex for them, since the thread of people making up fluff for them says they have more chaplains and librarians than normal.
But I only have a few Space Wolves models. For normal guys, it is pretty self explanatory. Power armored dude with a meltagun is pretty easily identified as a Grey Hunter with meltagun.
But I am taking a few SW specific characters: Bjorn, Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf mount, Lukas and a Wolf Priest. For these models, SW models and many bits were used. Bjorn is a plastic Ven Dread with a SW banner and claw left hand. Lord on Wolf is plastic SW Lord on converted Juggernaut. Everything is WYSIWYG down to the wolf talismans and wolf necklaces, even though the rest of the army is relatively free of wolf iconography. Even though he's red and black, it is pretty clear that the guy with the pelt, plasma pistol, wolf claw and crazy look on his face is Lukas.
And that's what it should be all about: clarity. My rule with proxies and counts-as is this: If you have to explain it more than once, you didn't do a good job.
I see where you are coming from, but your % is not always true. I use WHFB warriors of chaos models as my honur gaurd. I use diff heads and use bolters and power armour back packs. That is where the diff stat line comes from. I play at Brents store and MMESNO says that is counts as because it does not have a 40K stat line and I use it purly for the look.
I have had to do the 'count as' dance with my Traitor guard force. They originally started out as LATD so I had Traitors and Mutants running amok all over the place (so sad they did away with it). When that list went away I converted the list over to the Renegades and Heretics list. The traitors were easy, the mutants not so much. I ended up turning them into huge squads of Mutant Rabble (worker rabble/conscripts). I then converted them over to the new IG codex and realized that conscripts are more trouble than they're worth in 5th. When I used them as Penal Legionnaire's the problem of finding a fluffy and effective way of using them was over.
Brent, even though I am generally in the Brent camp, this time around I have to go with Not Brent.
I totally disagree! If you have an army that is WYSIWYG for wargear, everything is on the right base size and scaled appropriately, and you have a rationale, I totally support codex hopping. You would ban every Dark Angel player using the vanilla marine book? No, I don't think you would because you know the DA codex sucks and the Marine book is a reasonable substitute. Same with the Chaos dex. I can create a fluffier Chaos force with an alternate book like Space Wolves.
There are many alternate builds that were wiped out by GW, but can be remade using a codex creatively. Kroot mercenaries? Forget the Tau book, try Orks, Tryanids, IG… find what units match the closest and go for it.
I didn't spend months converting and painting my non-rubric Thousand Sons just to powergame, that is ridiculous. I wanted Spawn that weren't useless on the field, and mutated wolves were another natural match since I think Chaos Marines should have minions. I sculpted a giant screamer to serve as a landspeeder. I did this to powergame when I could have used my Space Wolf models instead? That makes no sense at all.
Saying Goat marines are ok to substitute but some other chaos models are not ok to substitute is hair splitting. Don't kill the variety, creativity, and theme by being strict on substitutions.
I think intention is important. You can usually tell that by the amount of effort the player has put into the army to make it work with the rules they are using.
That said, I would probably rule against the orks-as-guard army. I think using a completely different model can be too confusing. The statline and tactics for orks are too different to pass them off as guardsmen.
I appreciate the compliment – thanks!
Who are you?
You've got a valid opinion there, one shared by a number of people.
I actually tend to agree, to a certain extent, but nowadays everyone's hobby budget is tightening up and I expect we'll see more folks trying to get the most out of their models.
I think that's a pretty tight rule of thumb.
I'm pretty okay with someone's homegrown Powered Armored Dudes using whatever Codex they want… to tell you the truth, I've done it when they phased out my 13th Co.
What I think is iffy is using Khorne Berserkers as Vanguard and Plague Marines as Sternguard.
That kind of thing!
See, I love that kind of thing! That's a pure Counts-As in my book.
I feel your pain re: the Lost and the Damned. My most successful tournament army ever was my 13th Company.
Man, I miss that army.
Not Brent hurts Brent's feelings.
No worries mate – I don't mean to stifle anyone's creativity. Using your unique army to represent what you want is pretty okay by me!
What I mean is more on the lines of using Ultramarines as Chaos Space Marines. That's two totally different unit types that are represented in the rules. Everyone knows what an Ultramarine is, but if you set down an army on the table and start explaining that the Vanguard are Raptors and the Sternguard are Plague Marines and so on, that's going to cause confusion.
It's not uncommon to proxy when you're trying something new; remember, I am talking primarily about what's appropriate at a tournament.
I agree with you re: intention. That's an army that probably is perfectly appropriate as a Counts-As.
You'd be okay with the Orks as Guard though… his intention is obvious from the well-modeled army.
Partially agree partially disagree…
I agree that when an army is completely converted with certain specialized units included (aka the goat's different specialists like the khorne Juggers=T. wolves, Orky Gaurd=Gaurd Gaurd, etc) It clearly is a 'counts as' army,
but were I disagree is that if an army is WYSIWYG, like Chaos Marine, Red Marine, Blue Marine, Red Spikey Marine, pre-Heresy Marine, etc are all WYSIWYG as a space marines, either Chaos or Loyalist IMHO.
A marine is a marine is marine, spikes, or not, bunny ears or not, dresses, oh, um robes or not, emo vamp space viking or not…
When you try to tell me a SoB is a space marine you're wrong, unless the models are converted to be 'female' space marines or something I'm not buying it. That's like me saying 'oh my Rhinos are Chimeras in this game.'
That is proxy, its not 'counts as' nor is it WYSIWYG therefore it's gotta be a proxy.
I have trouble with Marines as Chaos Marines and vice-versa; it can lead to a lot of confusion unless they are all regular, old Chaos Space Marines.
That is spot on.
Isn't that what I said?
But when is a Marine not a Marine.
When he's a Plague Marine.
In the same sense that using a Sisters of Battle miniature to rep a Marine – because that's a model with its own stats in the game – using a Plague Marine as a Blood Angel Counts-As is pretty inappropriate.
So are we saying the same thing or am I wrong?
I used Khorne deamons as counts as for penal legion in my traitor guard army. The line of thinking is a traitor regiment wouldnt care if your a criminal, but might have some chaos deamon allies. So to differentiate penal legion from the rest of my guard i made them daemons.
Well once I get internet access again at home, I can show you my Thousand Sons designed to “count as” Space Wolves. This will heal Brent's feelings and restore Brent's good mood when it happens.
<Real Genius's eyes have glazed over at this point.>
Cheers!
Not really.
In the last incarnation of the C: CSM you could run a legion or cult list that gave you army special rules and marks transformed units like terminators into World Eater, or Death Gaurd terminators. It was cool and fluffy (yes that book was broen and crazy abusive if you wanted it to be) but you could play a Chaos legion much like you can now play a marine chapter. In the current C: CSM the Icons are a week replacement for the marks because icons can a) die negating the effects and b) only give one minor boost to non-cult troops.
Ok now that thats said I will say that in my fantasy grim dark world the World Eaters, for instance, don't consist of only Berserkers there was a whole legion at one point and that would mean that any bonuses or weaknesses would go along with the different units unlike the current book allows. But if you play a World Eaters 'counts as' Blood Angels I feel that you can make a much more fluffy army, will it also be better? maybe but not nessacerily you can make a pretty good list from the current CSM book it's just not very World Eaterish or Death Gaurd-ish..I mean Whats more world eater then CC dreads with grappling hooks for arms? (wait doesn't FW make that model for Khorne?) and the rule of roling for the black/red rage (whatever its called
) at the start of the game is very similar to a rule from the 3.5 Chaos book and was a WE rule.
Wow long post again, sorry guys….
In closing a sister of battle is clearly not a space marine, but if I want to field a 'Death Guard' army using ANY book some of the units are going to look nurgley but not be rules wise (oblits, defilers, Chaos Lords, etc). So if I make my oblits look like big plaguey masses with gunz sticking out are those 'proxy' or 'counts as?' to me they would be 'counts as' similarly if I give my havoks berserker helmets to match the rest of my force am I suddenly proxing? What if I use the BA book to represent my whole army as World Eaters is that crossing the line?
It seems you are saying it is and I am saying that if something is WYSIWYG whether it has bunny ears on its helmet is irrelevant.
The eye of terror lists were quite fun. I do understand why they went away from that kind of list, but I really did enjoy the pain I could deliver with the “mutant bum rush.” My Arch-Heretic grew in power over time with additional daemonic powers. That was when the chaos codex gave you a kind of RPG feel with your characters. Ahh … good times.
Hm, interesting question. For me “proxy” is a term used for playtesting (new) units, you don't want to buy w/o giving them a run on the table first. It is not something you do in a serious game or at a tournament.
Now let's talk about good and bad “count as” solutions. I agree with the “if you can't get what it should represent right away, it is a bad one” rule wholeheartedly. Running a themed pre/early post heresy World Eaters army with the SW rules, using Zerkers on crushers as TWC, terminators with havoc launchers as cylone wearing WG Terminators and Havocs as Longfangs is fine with me. I also wouldn't mind a IG army made out of beastman carrying las guns or a bunch of chimeras and LR tunks, slightly orkified with grots as troops. Friend of mine used guardian bodies + halo style helmets from pig iron, glued some lasguns and melta guns on and played them as a IG force. I borrowed that army for the german TOS and nobody complained.
I think the real problems starts when you use iconic units. For example a TS force using necron rules would be a hard nut for me, because a bunch of Sorcs riding on discs of tzeentch just don't scream necron destroyer in the same way a crusher riding white and blue guy with a zerker helmet, a fist and a chaos knight shield screams TWC guy with storm shield.
So the aim should be a on more or less self explaining army For example my corsair themed eldar army, which uses a lot of WHF DE and HE stuff. I runcold one knights with eldar heads and weapons from the DA exarch sprue counting as jetlocks, DA armed with fantasy lances on cold one as shining spears and both my DA and Guardians wear DE corsair cloaks. I could even imagine running that force with a new DE dex in the near future, because as long as I use enough DE iconic choices like ravagers and ravagers. Running a lot of conversions using 40k&whf DE bits + 40k eldar parts is still self explaining if you don't start using a lot of craftworld tanks and hands over a army list to your opponent, which has 2k Dark Eldar host printed on it as the headline.
You really make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this topic to be really something that I think I would never understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for me. I’m looking forward for your next post, I’ll try to get the hang of it!