Aug 19, 2010
Cheating…
Premeditated or absent-mindedness either way you slice that is what it is. What you do about it is totally another matter. Such is the case with the Overall Winner of the very first NovaOpen. Tony Kopach 16 year old wunderkind was playing with an illegal 2003 point list when it should have been 2000.
A minor infraction? In most settings this is really nothing to get worked up about. What about when prizes are on the line or tickets to Vegas? What about when fairly or unfairly an event is placed on a pedestal as the “competitive” tourney messiah– shouldn’t this behavior be taken a little more seriously? The vociferousness at which Mike Brandt defends his baby you would think that a zero tolerance for any cheating would be in effect? Even if it was caught after the fact? Instead, most of the Internet talking heads (funny many of them were given the red carpet to attend) seem to have given a collective shrug for this infraction.
How can an outsider judge the effect of three point swing that happens to be the winner of a tourney?
Last time I checked Warhammer 40k is a game of dice and results can end up completely different with even the most minor list changes. How could Tony’s list been different with 3 fewer points? One less piece of wargear that is how different. One less melta gun to blow up a tank. A lesser saving throw for an IC. That doesn’t even go into how a player or opponents tactics could change. Even if his opponents didn’t think this made much difference they are not taking into account a simple chaos effect. Of course time machines have not been built to check out whether Tony would of lost a game because of just three points. Just don’t pretend like it couldn’t of made a difference.
So instead of getting really ranty on this Blood of Kittens is curious what people think, because Blood of Kittens is not really sure if this sort of things requires pitchforks.
If you were a TO how would you deal with such a dilemma? Here is hoping Nova junkies will take a breath before attacking anything that dares to call into question the certitude that the NovaOpen is God’s gift to “competitive” 40k and just ask what would Brian Boitano do?
Consider as well what the Internet response would have been if other large events had the same thing happen to them?
pathtyphon
TastyTaste
Frank Austin
fluger
Brent
Dethtron
newsun
AbusePuppy
nyhil
That Teri Girl
reecerobbins
badtaste
Malign?
I doubt this, very strawman arguments. Read up on all his games, ask his opponents if they feel this way, but no: Crucify the guy 3 points over. Crucify this event for that?
Because, that’s the intention of this whole thread in reality, in case you haven’t noticed. Most of us have.
Well if you run into this before a tournament you ask the guy to use a different list, in the middle? change it. Simple enough. Now3 points over can probably be shrugged off. It was an err not really cheating. Lists should be reviewed more thouroughly in future events although like at wargamescon.
Most armies dont have a lot of 5 point wargear. you may have even seen entirely different units on the table. Anyway its the past and it probably didnt effect much at all. Mike ran a great event anyway
The sad thing here is that even if this kid is an amazing warhammer player. Even if he won decisively every time, and even if you could have done it 100 points down blindfolded while having a monkey screaching in his ear the whole time, he didn’t. He won 3 points over which is a violation of the rules.
It is admittedly a ‘minor’ violation in the grand scheme of things, one that WOULD be ignored in casual play but cannot be ignored if you make even the slightest claim to competitive legitimacy. Part of a tournament environment of any game is that all rules must be followed and all aspects must be mastered to be ‘the best’. In that kind of environment this kind environment any violation of the rules be it a point over or a player is rolling loaded dice that is discovered after the fact needs to be dealt with the same way, invalidate that players win. It’s sad but otherwise you announce that if you can get away with it some types of cheating are okay.
It could be dealt with in different ways if discovered during the event, and at that point intent (malice or ignorance) could be judged and taken into account and dealt with accordingly. But after the event the response has to be universal and harsh in order to maintain the claim of competitive legitimacy.
Lastly, regardless of how well the winner can move little models around a table, if he can’t properly manage list construction (check and double check his math) then he is not a 40k champion because part of the game is the list and his list failed before it started. If the TO couldn’t check and double check every player list to assure legality they should restrict their numbers to the point where they can. The end result is the ball was dropped somewhere, but because neither the player didn’t catch it (which is his responsibility) and the TO’s didn’t catch it (which is theirs) you are left in the end with a winner that violated the rules and that must be dealt with or else you cannot claim you are legitimately competitive as all rules are not enforced equally.
3pts is one Grot. I would happily give you one Grot extra in every single 2000pt match that I play, and have no worries that it would give you any advantage.
Instead of assuming the worst, you could look up the live stream of his last two games (Google Gamers Lounge Podcast, they had a live feed of the final tables.) and read up the battle report of his first opponent on DakkaDakka. If that’s not enough, read up the testomonials of all his opponents, which can be found, but lazily not linked on here. (Because, gee, it shows why this post is so much full of indirect slander.)
This is the ONLY site that has complained about it, by the way. Every other site where this topic has been brought up people have had a resounding: We don’t think it really matters. Only here. So, voice your opinion elsewhere, see how much people really think you’re right on this
Has that matter EVER in other tournaments that get slammed? No – it hasn’t and be upfront and honest about it. If this was BOScon, Adepticon, Bolter Beach etc – the YTTH and “Competitive Tourney” crowd would be pitching holy hell on the internet about it.
THAT is in my opinion the issue here. Tournaments are tournaments – all are good – all have different ways of doing things – and that’s great – it’s the spice of life. Mike did an awesome job running a tournament – but y’know what – some of the same stuff that happens in pretty much every tournaments – also happened at the “Mecca of Competitive Gaming” tournament – the ONLY tournament that the “vaunted” YTTH site has ever endorsed.
So – guess what – people are gonna call them out on it. Sometimes paybacks are hell.
Defend it all you like….it makes you look like a hypocrite.
Now – to Mike – who will read this and get bent most likely. It’s not meant for you. You ran a good tourney, at the end of the day, a different twist than others with Sat being a qualifier for Sunday, but still similar to other tourneys. You did a good job. Unfortunately for you, you got to cozy with the YTTH crowd, who have done a phenomenal job of separating the gaming community, spitting vitriol at everyone who (gasp) dares think differently then them, and quite honestly has no collateral to make claims about how good tournaments are – and that they are some kind of expert on 40K gaming. I personally don’t care for internet egoistical twits act like they are the be all end all wellspring of god-like knowledge about 40K – that from what I’ve seen got nothing to their name to back it up.
For that, I’m sorry for you – but you worked hard and did a great job with your tourney. Hope you don’t take what I’m saying at your or Nova – I’ve said elsewhere – it sounds intriguing and you did a great job – I’d consider attending in the future.
“Defend it all you like….it makes you look like a hypocrite.”
When have I ever slammed a tournament? Are you just picking me out because I read YTTH?
Have I ever claimed anything before this? If you look, no I don’t.
I am just defending Mike’s event as I have met him before and I am doing what I think is best in defending his event.
You are the one doing the dividing. You’re also assuming a lot, and why haven’t I cared before? Because again, it would’ve been a local event for me if I was there. I know the winner you guys are complaining about so strongly, yes I know him personally! So that’s why I’m defending him, he’s a friend.
Or did you really think I was just defending him as a YTTH reader? Because seriously, it was never that case.
Also – I did care that Tasty was buggering other tourneys before, my whole gaming group agrees Tasty is one guy we all wanna avoid if we ever enter a tournament or run one.
Tells ya much?
Anyways, this is a first for me, words being stuffed in my mouth is hilarious.
FFS stop holding me accountable for what ya’ll don’t like about stelek
(not you Matthias, Darkwynn’s comment)
If you wanna hold me accountable for the fact that Stelek and Co. liked the event, that’s petty in return for petty. I’d reconsider the stance. You trying to punish them by punishing me for them getting close is going to accomplish nothing; I’m not going to run off and take a dump on them just to be popular with some other crowd. I’d rather see both crowds stop being tards about all this, without the “THEM FIRST” bs attached either.
Instead of assuming the best, maybe you should look around before making accusations – especially something dumb like “full of indirect slander”. Many of us “discovered” the 3pts issue when Mafty (one of his opponent’s) reported it. To MVB as a problem. On a different blog. Days before Tasty’s article.
For some reason, Mafty took the time to pull out the codex and check his opponent’s list and found a problem. I doubt if he did it for fun, but we’ll have to ask Mafty to be sure.
So it’s clear that at least *one* of this opponents had a problem — otherwise, we wouldn’t have heard about the problem in the first place. Right?
I stumbled across this story on another blog — so Tasty didn’t “break” or “fabricate” this story. This conversation is happening on at least two blogs, so BoK isn’t the ONLY site that has complained.
In any case, this issue needs to be dealt with and put to bed. As long as it’s unresolved, it’s a weak spot in an otherwise solid event. I, for one, don’t want to foster a “just don’t get caught” attitude when it comes to major tournaments. That might be fine for a local event, but when people are spending hundreds of dollars to attend an event they want to be treated fairly.
Whoa, you totally burned me there! How long did you sit staring at the screen to come up with that witty comeback!
You know, you should totally write for Night Court – if it ever comes back on. I could totally see Dan Fielding saying that to Judge Harry Stone. “Your Honor, you seem to have confused the word ‘benign’ with some other word that means something other than benign.”
And then they would play that really loud laugh track, while Bull drops his jaw and Roz covers her face…
Freaking brilliant!
Yes, let’s focus on the negatives, let’s show the hobbyists that’s how we truly are. I never said he broke or fabricated it? Did you read the Disinformation article or are you assuming again?
Words in mouth, love it
I have looked around, spread this around more guys, all I see is home town fluffing the home team.
How talking about this a) obvious and serious problem which b) still isn’t resolved that c) affects the entire tournament community “focusing on the negatives”?
So you linked a Wikipedia article. Congratulations — What did that take? A whole 10 seonds of research? Color me impressed. Maybe I’d be more impressed if you wrote an article about it — instead of carrying the equivalent of a pitchfork in the comments section.
We’re all invested in seeing that major events are run well. It’s okay to talk openly and honestly about your concerns. Really. I don’t think any of us should turn a blind eye to cheating – even when it’s three little points.
Jwolf, Hank, Matthias and MVB prefer to have these conversations via email — which makes sense. They are trying to build a better community, but they are also trying to build and protect their specific events.
Every single one of us is invested in seeing these problems solved. So calling us names and puffing your chest isn’t going to stop us from talking about them. And while we risk constant attack from myopic readers like you (sitting comfortably behind whatever line they’ve drawn in the sand), the end is certainly worth it — a stronger and more informed community.
Still home turf n surf. ;D
You realize you aren’t making any sense, right?
I entirely make sense, in my own world, which is the point.
Yeah I have to say Aldonis that it’s:
a) Mostly Stelek that slams other tournies. Even people that regularly post generally disagree with his views on Adepticon/Warcon with the exception of the INAT which a lot of people don’t agree with.
b) I personally don’t slam tournaments I haven’t attended. But I have noticed that this particular sight has been slamming the Nova and “competitive” gamers pretty hard. And almost no one who’s posted attended said tournament.
I think your futhering the divide Aldonis. I think Stelek is furthing the divide. But that said Mike took the time to listen a little (key word) to Stelek and made an event that anyone could attend and enjoy. I realize he can come off as an ass but not all of his ideas are shit. He’s an internet personality.
Also props to Mike for not slamming anyone who took the time to attend and enjoy his tournament. By far the best run and most fun tournament I’ve had since Vegas 2007 GT. It wasn’t the format that made it great. It was the attititude of the TO, his staff, and the other attendees.
Mkerr, I hope you and others realize that the comments section on BOK has no rights to be the shouting point for any resolution I apply to this situation.
I’m moving forward with advancement of the hobby, at this point, and certainly not trolling BOK for any other reason than hopefully eventually getting through to you, specifically, about a better way to approach things such as this.
As always, I’m available via gchat/e-mail, which is a much better medium for this sort of thing.
Its clear Mike needs to get off his ass and sort the issue out.
Regardless of Tony being a nice guy, 16 years old and anything else, on purpose or not he broke the rules and Mike needs to address this.
If he doesn’t then his event was a sham and he endorses cheating and lacks balls to sort it out.
The following should take place:
- Disqualify Tony
- Move everyone up a place
- Distribute prizes
- Save reputation
If Mike fails to do this then Nova will be a joke and Mike should relinquish his position as TO as he lacks the balls to enforce his own rules and bitches correcting his own mistake will take a lot of work to sort out – tough luck you shouldn’t have fucked up in the first place and this shows a disservice to all those who abided by the rules.
Stelek on this issue makes me laugh, he goes on about cheaters, douchebags and all at tournaments and TO’s lacking balls to kick them out/do anything about it and yet he is kissing Mike’s ass big time, and the fact he is 2nd place which means he would get the winnings. And he keeps bitching about how the tournaments aren’t competitive, what happened Stelek? You lost your balls under that flab of yours?
Sort it out Mike.
Overly harsh and off-base towards Mike….and perhaps this is the fellow TO in me speaking, but I think discrediting the event and/or the future of the event over what would possibly be a simple, honest error is uncalled for. Mike didn’t write the list – sure he was ultimately responsible for checking that list – but he has already admitted this multiple times.
Do you have any concept how difficult it would be to keep a true cheater honest in this situation? Pre-checking army lists is only a threat, if someone wants to lie about what weapons a unit or vehicle has…it will happen. If some wants to place an extra model or two on the table…it will happen.
If being 3 points over was an honest mistake…then yes, the TOs should have caught it, or at least one of his opponent’s should have brought it to the attention of the TOs…but by the same token, isn’t an honest mistake vastly different than the above scenarios? Can you prove it was willingly done? What about benefit of the doubt?
Neither case invalidates a TOs approach, dedication or stance on these issues. Things of this nature are bound to happen, calling for a witch-hunt solves nothing.
Regarding Stelek…of course I agree. The inconsistency of some people in regards to matters of this nature are obviously self-serving and towing ‘party’ line…bigger question is: Why did you expect differently?
“Do you have any concept how difficult it would be to keep a true cheater honest in this situation? Pre-checking army lists is only a threat, if someone wants to lie about what weapons a unit or vehicle has…it will happen. If some wants to place an extra model or two on the table…it will happen.”
I find this very difficult to believe if the tournament had all the army lists for each player and them out on official tournament paper (a logo on it or something) and before each game the judges walk round the tables with a copy of all the army lists and check all the armies are as they should before playing.
This would prevent any form of cheating what so ever.
“Can you prove it was willingly done? What about benefit of the doubt?”
Regardless of a mistake or not, if everyone else can abide by the 2000 point limit Tony has no excuse. It isn’t his first time writing a list, he would have practiced a lot, readjusted his list like everyone else and would have had many chances to spot his error.
When people pay to play and there are prizes to be won you cannot give anyone the benefit of the doubt or everyone else will use it as precedence.
“Neither case invalidates a TOs approach, dedication or stance on these issues. Things of this nature are bound to happen, calling for a witch-hunt solves nothing.”
I’m not asking for a witch-hunt I’m asking Mike to do what he is paid (money from entry) to do, which is to run a FAIR tournament and stick to the rules or have none and don’t bother running a tournament.
Again if he can’t do the service on behalf of everyone else he should step down.
Matthias – Stelek has always been a douche bag, yeah he got his ass beat by a kid and licks the appropriate butts, but I thought he would lift up his huge gut and check if he had some balls this time, I guess he still can’t find them.
Lol paid.
You’re calling me out on a random tiny blog. If you care enough, you can e-mail me.
As far as the tude, you’re worse than Stelek. Thanks Matt.
Also, you’re right, the ~$1000 this tournament cost me in the net end was totally payment, and I totally owe YOU something for it.
This isn’t even a good troll. You’re a joke.
1. “Mafty admitted publicly in his Battle Report on DakkaDakka the 3 points over didn’t matter much, but that is not mentioned here”
It wasn’t mentioned because it isn’t relevant. It doesn’t matter if the cheating impacted the game. Who cares if the extra three points won any of his games? He had an illegal list. Playing with an illegal list should AT A MINIMUM bar you from winning an event.
Mafty seems like a nice guy and doesn’t want to come across as a dick. But if it was a non-issue, he wouldn’t have checked his opponent’s list against the codex. And if it was a non-issue, then he wouldn’t have posted the complaint on a public forum.
2. “since it’s not spreading because, possibly, not many people agree with you and hence why haven’t seen as involved discussion elsewhere”
That’s an appeal to the masses (a logical falacy). Maybe you determine right and wrong by holding a vote, but I don’t. If I have an issue or feel like there’s a problem, then I talk about it with anyone that will listen. You might be able to convince me I’m wrong — it’s happened. But you’ll have to do better than “everyone disagrees with you”.
3. “Since people have misread intentions and judge the winner without asking him themselves…”
Who gives a crap what the winner thinks? Again, not relevant. I don’t care if he “intended” to cheat or not. His list wasn’t legal for the tournament. He won prizes with an illegal list. That’s bad.
If he’d walked up to the organizer before the first game and said, “Oh man, my army list is over by three points”. Do you think that the TO would’ve replied with “Don’t worry about it, dude. It’s just three points – go have fun”. No he would’ve said, “Make it legal or you can’t play”.
4. “False representation, unrelenting in claiming there are tons of people behind this when all I see is THIS site, and failing to see any positive notes from the author of this blog about the event despite seeing countless positive notes about it elsewhere…”
a. There’s no false representation. No one disagrees that his list is 3 points over. No one disgrees that the list was illegal. No one disagrees that you shouldn’t be able to win prizes with an illegal list.
b. There are no claims of “tons of people behind this”. If I’m the only person in the world with a problem with an illegal list getting a golden ticket to Vegas (I’m not, by the way), then I’m okay with being the only one. My conscience isn’t controlled by popular opinion.
c. No one is knocking the NOVA Open. I think it was a great event with a creative format and I would’ve been there with my Blood Angels if it wasn’t so close to WGC. I wanted the NOVA Open to be successful (which is why I wrote a cautionary letter to MVB on my blog). I even wanted Stelek to win (to give him some much needed credibility).
The NOVA Open was great and MVB did an awesome job organizing it. The only issues I’ve had with the site are the format (I don’t think it’s as good as a Swiss-system tournament with battle points scoring), the missions (I prefer not knowing them in advance), and the pairing system (I think it exacerbates the problems with random seeding).
I’m not picking on MVB or the NOVA. I had similar issues with Adepticon and wrote articles about my problems with their fortmat. Hank and Matthias and the others at Adepticon incorporated some of my advice and tossed the pieces they didn’t like.
I’ve been very public with my problems with our first year of BOLSCON. Jwolf did a much better job making me happy this year (the missions were much improved, as you can see by my WGC By the Numbers articles). But he ignored a ton of my advice. That’s okay too.
@MVB — I would love to chat about the NOVA with you directly. You can reach me anytime at mkerr@chainfist.com.
I’m more interested in debating the finer points of your format, but I’m happy to talk about this issue as well.
I do feel you need to take a stand on the issue of the illegal list. If you’ve spoken to Hank and Jwolf, then they’ve probably given you the same advice. It needs to be put to bed. I agree with Jwolf’s assessment though “I’d rather eat glass than deal with this issue”. But painful as it is, it needs to be resolved.
As I’ve said many times, I think the NOVA was a great event and I plan to attend next year (if you can put more space between WGC an your event – of if I’m living the life of leisure next year).
I also think that we’d get along great if we met. You clearly have great ideas and a drive to improve the hobby (and, like me, you have a tough time keeping your mouth shut when you feel like you need to say something).
“You’re calling me out on a random tiny blog. If you care enough, you can e-mail me.”
No need too when you have now seen it.
“As far as the tude, you’re worse than Stelek. Thanks Matt.”
Wtf are you on about?
“Also, you’re right, the ~$1000 this tournament cost me in the net end was totally payment, and I totally owe YOU something for it.”
Yeah that’s right, you owe the PLAYERS, they paid for a service and abided by the rules.
Now if you’re too much of a gutless prick who portrays your event as competitive and serious you will do the above steps I have mentioned. If not then you should refund everyone as you’re willing to let people win who cheated what’s the point of everyone else competing if cheaters just win regardless?
You can call me all the names you want but you’re letting everyone see you let cheaters win, you let the honest players suffer, you lack balls and a back bone, and will be seen as a joke to a lot of people.
“This isn’t even a good troll. You’re a joke.”
The only joke here is you, and everyone sees it. You fail to counter any of my points. But alas if someone who speaks nothing but the truth is a troll then you truly deserve to fail.
*notes it’s been more than a week, and haven’t seen much action from Mike yet, is it still a matter of debate you guys are having privately or, should the results be posted like Tasty said he would after a week of discussion?
All i would say about this is it comes down to integrity, i’ll link a golf case to show how someone who won fair and square had to forfeit his win cause he had one extra golf club in his bag. and this kid was about the same age. The winner should give up his ticket just for the fact that he was over, not that he doesn’t deserve the win, but he did break the rule even if the 3 points were not impacting it. BUT the even organizers fucked up, they need to check every army list they billed this as the best tourney for 40k but in there first showing they did not show the effort to check all the lists and verify the points. here is that link http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/devil_ball_golf/post/What-would-you-do-teen-golfer-disqualifies-self?urn=golf-267228
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/devil_ball_golf/post/What-would-you-do-teen-golfer-disqualifies-self?urn=golf-267228
Odd, my post was deleted: it was about how nothing positive, nor results of the tournament (unlike, oh every other event Tasty has covered)
Because it’s true, this post is SLANDER.