Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 47

Blaine sent me a link to this thread almost 3 weeks ago and I’ve been saving it for a special occasion, such as today.  What you’re about to see is a thread about Razorback weapons on Warseer that starts out amicably and then rides right off the rails for no real reason.  It also gets closed in the end for no real reason.  One of the fight participants even appears to be banned now, but probably not from this thread.  If anybody does know where Pringles got banned though, let me know.  Seriously, what is up with the Warseer admins.  First my alter ego gets multiple warnings for having an “offensive” screen name – yeah then why did you filter allow it if it’s so fucking profane, TKE gets banned, and now this. (more…)

Friday Night Internet Fight: Round 33

There was a hard fought battle of the wits this morning as Dethtron fought Dethtron in a no-holds-barred steel cage death match to determine which of three absolutely ridiculous forum threads to use for this week’s fight.  I think I figured out how to use one of them for my FNIF: Extra Innings series that no one reads, but ultimately I decided on going using one from a newer forum, Imperial Guard Message Board.  For some naive reason, when I found out this forum existed a while back I actually got a little excited.  Being a Guard player myself, I’m always on the lookout for some new info.  You don’t have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out how this brief love affair ended:  I read a few posts and realized that not only is everyone there full of shit, but Melissia is a frequent poster…shit.

To provide proof of the level of discourse that you’re likely to find there I present to you the magic that is Deep Strike + Transport???  The number of question marks alone should tell you what kind of thread this will turn out to be.  I don’t want to ruin this for you ahead of tie, but this is how rules threads turn out when people who don’t seem to be entirely familiar with the game resort to mental fisticuffs.

As always, none of the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but their avatars have been for my own amusement.  Portions of this thread, not affecting the outcome, have been edited out and posts may be displayed out of chronological order, to make for an easier read.  I will not edit spelling and grammar mistakes made in the original post- we all know it’s funnier that way.  Last and certainly not most the least, I will be snowmobiling in red text when I come up with some witty rejoinder or other.  Without further ado, here goes nothing:

Rook- I noticed that stormies can take a chimera. ~hope that one didn’t take you too long to figure out.  Does the chimera get deep strike ability if linked up with stormies?  ~only if you physically link them together, like with a chain or something It would seem rather stupid that it didn’t but I figured I would ask first before using.

And if you could point me to the rule(page) either confirming or denying that would be awesome.  ~error 404 page not found

Thanks in advance.
 

Ymmot- I’d say that the trasport also has to have the deep strike special rule if you want it to deep strike.  ~and we have a winner right out of the gates.  Why are there almost 30 posts after this you ask?  Read on to find out

No luck finding a page number…  ~that might have something to o with such a page not existing.

I know they can outflank in their chimera’s though.(p.94) ~Oh I almost forgot, if rule A allows me to do B, then rule X clearly then allows me to do….fuck it, not even going to finish that though
 
 

Rolling Thunder- Rook,

This is the most awesome idea in the history of mankind. ~is it too much to ask that somebody named rolling thunder might know a little something about what the air force is currently capable of in real life
 

RedsandRoyals- Seconded. Oh God, seconded.  ~you’re also an idiot, oh god, you’re an idiot

Okay, I have read the rules for Deepstrike, and there is nothing at all that says they can’t do this.   ~there also isn’t a rule stating that I can’t use my balls as a vehicle (F10S10R10 open topped skimmer, transport capacity 5 armed with spooge cannon [R template S4 AP- any unit wounded by spooge canon must take a dangerous terrain test if it moves in its next movement phase])

Also, looking at the infiltrate rule, any unit with this rule that buys a dedicated transport can apply that rule to the transport.  ~epic reading fail.  Wonder how long it will take for somebody to point it out Thus, we have precedent to assume you’re right….  ~not so much, bub

This…this may change my opinions on taking Stormies.   ~you know, since a power armor raping rapid fire weapon in a scouting transport is sooooo terrible.

Reds ~gahhhhhhhh.  Well, what more would one expect from somebody who actually has a Stalin avatar.  Seriously Internet- Stalin= not cool
 

Rook- Ummmm, thanks I think. Jesus(Raptor riding Christ) ~oh boy, memes.  Whoopee you scare me when you type a sentence like that… 

What are you up too? ~not too much, you wanna go grab something to eat- maybe get a game in?
 
Page 75 reads they CAN’T infiltrate with said transport. Where are you getting your info?  ~a drug induced stupor? 

RedsandRoyals- Whoop, sorry. I meant Scouts.

Still, that means it does specify when you can’t do it, and it doesn’t say you can’t for the Chimera…. ~I cannot describe in words how tired I am of this type of argument.  Instead, I’ll describe it like this 3====} (_o_)

Reds  ~douche

Trickstick- I think this comes down to the whole “permissive ruleset” agument. Nowhere does it say that a dedicated transport gains the abilities of its occupants. The only exceptions are in the case of “Outflank” at the bottom of page 94 and also a dedicated transport can gain scouts from its occupants, as detailed on page 76. Note that it doesn’t get infiltrate if it has an infiltrating squad inside, it just allows it to outflank. ~a beacon of hope in a sea of painful stupidity.  Thanks stick



Deep Strike This Mother Fucker

 Plus, from a fluff perspective, how would you deepstrike a chimera? I must say that the thought of a chimera-sized grave chute is appealing, if a little weird. ~you had it all, an easy FNIF win, a clear indication that you’re not a complete moron, and then you fritter it away.  I think it’s time for the first ever pictorial snowmobile (also, it’s totally hard to find a picture of a parachuting tank that’s not from that dumbass A Team movie)

RedsandRoyals- The same way you can try and justify Deepstriking an idiot Land Raider.  ~yeah, land raiders are so dumb, geez You push it out of a passing plane. ~now why was it that earlier you seemed to think that this was the most novel concept ever?

Trickstick has a good point. Where’s Westrider? He knows all of these things.

Reds ~aaaahhh
 

Trickstick- Land Raiders come in via thunderhawk transporters though, they can carry one landraider or two rhino chasis. Nearest thing we have are the massive drop ships on the codex cover. ~well those big ass things should be more than capable of dropping a chimera Wish we could get a marauder transporter or something, say it could transport any chimera frame vehicle.
 

RedsandRoyals- There is a Valk modded to hold an Elysian buggy. I’m sure that it wold be easy enough to mod it to hold Chimera.  ~not even going to rip on you, because you may not have seen those models, but the Tauros is way smaller than the Chimera, so that conversion would not be anything approaching easy

Reds ~go to hell
 

Trickstick- That thing does seem nice but it would need a whole lot of extra thrust to lift a chimera. Maybe a couple of pivoting engine pods on the wing tips. A Chimera is a lot heavier than a Tauros.  ~didn’t know that schools were now offering advanced degrees in Sci-Fi physics.  Time to bust out my Ender’s Game Gravity Thesis

I must say if someone tried to use deepstriking chimera outside of a fun game with friends i would give them a weird look and think that they were joking.  ~probably because it’s not allowed in the rules May as well say that the chimera gets pinning too if the stormtroopers have that mission, or how about feel no pain if it has a medic inside?  ~may as well say they get scout too while we’re at it…oh….shit

May write up a special mission about a deepstriking chimera plattoon behind enemy lines, sounds like fun.

Rook- I’m sending a message to customer service at GW. ~aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh hahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha haha hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahhahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha ahahahahaha ha ha ha ha h ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ahaha  hahahahahahah ha h a ha ha ha hahahahahaha ha h a hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahah ha hahahahahaha ahahahahah ahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha ha ha ha h a ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h a hahahahahahahaha ahahahhahahahaha hahahahaha aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hahahahaha hahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahaha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha hahahahaha bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh hahahahahahahahaha bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahaha ahahaha hahahahah ahahhahahahaha    hahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha …………. Oh shit, you were serious.  Good luck to you sir

Will post the response here.

Dedrier- Does this mean we can deepstrike a Valk as well? ~I think I just actually facepalmed for the first time in my life

Nevermind, its already in the rules. XD ~In case you were wondering, yes this was added in by the poster well after the original post.  Now as to the specific mental deficiencies that led to this happening, I can only speculate.
 

Rook- Here is the customer service response via email;

“Greetings!

I am not quite sure that I could explain this in an e-mail
without it getting lengthy and confusing, so here’s the remedy: if you
can call us at 1-800-394-4263, we can get to the bottom of this quite
quickly and effectively for you before we even hang up the phone! ~so hang on, he’s saying he’ll probably resolve your question before he hangs up?  That’s nice to know.  It is generally good form to conduct most of a phone conversation while the line is still active.  The fuck?

Thanks!

Andrew Hall
Customer Service Specialist”

I have yet to call.
 

Laughing Man- GW Staff member’s brain reading the email: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH QUICK GET A FORM RESPONSE AND PASS THE BUCK.  ~lol, good thing I haven’t looked into the future to find out that Andy Hall actually answers this question satisfactorily over the phone, cock
 

Happyorange-

UPDATE

Here is the customer service response via email;


“Greetings!


I don’t know the answer and can’t be bothered to find out, so please ask someone else. ~I see what you did there.  Now if only you could have done it in such a manner that it might be slightly amusing


Thanks!


Andrew Hall
Customer Service Specialist”

Fixed.
 

Gasmask- Happyorange = Captin Subtext!! ~shit, I’d almost forgotten that putting words in someone’s mouth is subtext.  Let me try: Happyorange=not actually witty
 

RedsandRoyals- Just called.  ~I missed it, I must have been out.  Please leave me a voicemail the next time you try to call me about those dinner plans

I actually talked to Mr. Hall when I called, and he seemed like a nice guy (He plays IG too, so we talked Stormies for a little while).  ~hmm, looks like the buck was not passed after all
Apparently you CANNOT deepstrike the Chimera. ~hate to say I told you so.  Wait, no I don’t.  I love telling dipshits like you I told you so  Most USRs do not transfer to dedicated transports. Units transferring Scout to their transport is the exception to the rule.

Reds ~dipshit

News Flash: White Dwarf Still Sucks

Time for my shameful admission: I have a White Dwarf subscription.  Worse yet, they conned me into getting it at a GW store, so I don’t even get it mailed to me.  I have to hop in the car to pick up a freaking magazine that is barely worth the paper it’s printed on. 

It’s bad enough that the tactics articles are garbage, the news articles can’t keep up with the speed of Internet data (which has yet to eclipse the speed of light, but it’s coming…suck on that physics), and I’m basically paying $10 a month for a freaking catalog, but now they have started offering awful painting Q&A.  Over the years the painting tutorials have gotten exponentially better.  They actually show steps and techniques in full detail without skipping things like they used to.  So no more step 1) base your tank step 2) drybrush your tank step 3)???? step 4) ‘eavy metal quality.  In all honesty the painting articles have still been really good, but they’ve added an “advice” column called “Ask ‘Eavy Metal” where you can write them for painting advice.  In a word, their advice is horribad.  This apparently targets people who don’t have an Internet connection or haven’t figured out that there are shit loads of good tutorials on most aspects of painting out there and have no problem waiting months for their answers to be published.  Wait, so who is there target market on this?  Oh well, maybe it’s like Penthouse where all the testimonials and questions are just made up.  Dear White Dwarf forum:………

Don’t believe me?  Not likely given that you all probably know how bad WD has gotten, but here’s an example.  A poor reader, or editor drafted to make up questions, wrote in asking what the best way to seal miniatures for gaming but retaining paint integrity would be.  You know, protect shit from the rigors of gaming.  Easy enough question to answer, but here’s what the jaw-droppingly bad reply from the ‘eavy metal team in US White Dwarf #367 page 103:

Kornel:  It might surprise you to learn that we don’t generally varnish our models…since they’re display pieces first and foremost.  When you varnish a miniature, no matter how carefully, you risk muting the colours, diminishing the highlights or masking the effects you’ve created.  So, we paint our models to get the effect that we want and then trust everyone else in the studio not to damage them.  It means we’ve got to keep an open mind to repairing chipped models, but it’s the only way to keep the paint exactly how we want it. 

Keith:  Kornel’s hit the nail on the head with his answer, but if you’re a keen gamer your metal models…won’t last long without some help.  Probably the best technique is to varnish the  miniatures with purity seal, which has a matte finish.  For extra protection you could even use gloss varnish first and then spray on purity seal over that to dull down the gloss finish.  Of course, if you want shiny patches… then you’ll have to re-gloss those by hand afterwards.

So Kornel, you are a complete dipshit for failing to even address the question at hand.  Keith, you’re almost as bad for failing to provide any useful information and failing to recommend ardcoat, a GW product, for hand varnishing those “shiny patches.”  Your marketing department is cursing you as we speak.  No good discussion about sealing miniatures should pass up the opportunity to discuss how finicky spray varnish is with humidity.  You would also want to address techniques to prevent getting fuzzy varnish like holding your can upside down and spraying until nothing comes out to clear the nozzle and prevent shit from drying out and getting sprayed onto your next batch of minis- also advisable for your primer.  Hell you could have even mentioned that matte varnish is especially hard on metallics, but you can spruce them up by doing ink washes after your sealer or brushing a gloss varnish (I use vallejo- because dropper bottles fucking rule) over them to spruce them back up. 

Thanks for nothing ‘eavy metal.  Maybe it’s time to change your magazine’s name to “Black Hole.”

Reserving and it’s useless….

I just peeped an article on Librarium Online about Deep Striking and its Uses by Karman_seaking (is he king of the sea or just bad at spelling seeking).  See what I did with my own title there.  Pretty clever, eh? 

So no, deepstriking isn’t useless, but the Librarium Article sure was.  There are plenty of times where deep striking can be a key strategy for victory.  Hell, I’m even experimenting with some Tyranid stuff that Lauby has alluded to in an attempt to build a working deep striking Tyranid list.  Sans the double hive commander it’s pretty fucking hard to pull off, but I feel like I’m getting close.  If only my tiny little brain could remember all of those Harpy rules.

Well this has barely started and I’ve already run off on a tangent.  Wasn’t I supposed to be ranting against a Librarium article or something?  Hopefully this doesn’t set a tone for the way my brain is going to be functioning this week, what with some job interviews coming up and all.  Oh fuck another tangent- this does not bode well for my fragile sanity.

Ok, after false start #2 hopefully we’ll be off to the races.  I’ll just go ahead and pull out some choice “advice” from Librarium and rail against it.  That should be safe enough.  You may want to take into account that the original author wasn’t writing about plain Jane reserves when he wrote the article, but deep-striking, infiltrating, and out-flanking.

-Keep it cheap. Reserving units are meant for quick, brutal engagements that hammer your opponent and you. A good reference point is around 150 pts. If it costs anything more then that, you should seriously consider if the cost can be justified.

Seriously?  I’ve learned the hard way (meaning, getting my ass handed to me on a silver platter) that deep-striking is best seen as an all or nothing affair.  If you can’t fully commit to jumping into combat a limited number of troops are just going to get the shit shot out of them when they come in.  Plus, putting an arbitrary points limit  without taking the army you’re going to be using is just plain silly.  Tyranids?  Most of their deep-strikers and infiltrators are pretty expensive (except termagants in pods).  Daemons?  Well you don’t have a choice, all your shit has to deep strike and most of it isn’t cheap.  Marines?  Put in some equipment and your pod squads are already at or over your self-imposed points limit.  Assault Squads?  Unless you’re playing Blood Angels you’re about to get laughed off the table.

If applicable, take homers.

Great, let’s throw away more precious points and split up our forces even more.  Good luck getting those potentially pricey homers into position.  After you’re done splitting your force down the middle into deepstrikers and not-deepstrikers and are busying yourself with maneuvering the not-deepstrikers into position, your opponent will be greedily enjoying the opportunity to blow half your force away with the benefit of minimal targets and easy target priority.  You could maybe pull this off with resilient stuff like bike squads, but for the most part this is terrible advice.

Assaulty is better than shooty

Oh for fuck’s sake!  So half your article is dedicated to deep-strikers and you’re advocating assaults.  Good thing units can assault when the deep strike.  Oh wait, you mean they can’t?  Well I guess we’re pretty fucked then.

He then goes on to say that one of the best things that will happen is that your opponent will have to react to the new threat stating that this will

give you an oppertunity to get very close to your opponent, enabling you to put a lot of pressure on your opponent, particularly if the unit is dangerous/assaulty. In order to suffer minimal damage from the unit, they will likely be forced to direct resources that would be heading for the rest of your army and dedicate their movement phase for a turn, or maybe two, into dealing with the threat. Often the best idea is to take a cheap unit that looks scary, whack it in reserve, and watch your opponent go nuts when your unit turns up, hungry for blood.

First of all, way to edit- were you not given the oppertunity to do so?  Moving on, this is why this won’t work- once your opponent realizes (or if they already knew) that your scary looking unit is a feint, your careful plans all go to shit.  You’re also not taking into account the effect of splitting up your army.  When your reserves arrive there’s a good chance that the rest of your army has already been scattered or crippled.  Your opponent is now free to get rid of your small contingent of reserves.  Who gives a shit if they might have to move a little?  Unless you’ve just done some epic maneuvering of your own and landed in such a way that your opponent has no chance of getting to you, but you can get to him, moving into attack position shouldn’t be too hard for your opponent, with the heavy volume of fire most modern lists can put out.

These arguments don’t even take into account how useless outflanking is most of the time.  Unless you are outflanking in fast vehicles, with bikes, or against an opponent who has no choice but to sprawl out across the deployment zone outflanking is just a way to ensure that a chunk of your army will be out of the fight for most of the game.  All your foe has to do is castle up in one corner if he knows that you’re going out-flank and you stand a big chance being in the wrong place when you show up on the table.  Swell! 

Prepare to be Vanquished

We’ve all seen this thread.  Somebody asks for help picking the best load out for a Leman Russ.  Before you even read any further into the thread, you already know it’s going to be packed to the gills with incredibly bad advice: the main battle tank is awesome, put sponsons on just about anything, lascannons are a great value, and my personal favorite- The Vanquisher is the best tank around.  When I was cruising DakkaDakka earlier today I stumbled across just such a thread.  Russ Variant Load Outs asks Leman Russ armament question and is met immediately with some of the worst (and subsequently most staunchly defended) advice I have seen in quite some time.

Here’s what Lord Command Phyrus had to say about this:

my favourite, the Vanquisher, very good for taking out enemt Landraiders etc, usualy no sponsons for me since none of them realy commpliment the main gun. again hull lascannon and usualy Pask, makes it 220 pnts but it generaly manages to kill a Landraider or some such every game

At least he got the no sponsons right.  He didn’t get it right in talking about some other tanks, but that’s another rant for another day.  Let’s vivisect that little turd-nugget of advice. 

• Cost- at 220 points this tank barely earns its points back if you manage to peel caps in a Landraider, which presupposes that your opponent has a LR equivalent target to shoot at.  I hope he isn’t bringing jump-packing Blood Angels or anything Tau or Nids or you get the idea.  If I were playing nids I would laugh as you put a wound on one of my monstrous creatures and then proceed to mount your tank from behind and violate all 220 points worth of its tailpipe.  Q: does Pask look like a bitch.  A: Yes, and that is precisely why I am trying to fuck him like one.  What are some other things that are good at taking out AV14 and have a reasonable threat range that could be taken in lieu of the Paskmobile?  You could almost get 2 Devil Dogs, about 1.5 3x Melta Vets in a Chimera, A demolisher with some points left over, nearly 2 Vendettas (not the best at AV14, but TL and multiple shots help them out), close to 2 Medusas, or even a Manticore with points to spare.  Short answer, you can get things that are just about as good at taking out armor at range that will allow you to buy more units and provide greater duality, which brings me to my next point
• Duality- the Paskmobile lacks this.  As mentioned above, if you don’t have an armored target, Pask will be sitting around with his dick in his hand the whole game.  Add in that expensive lascannon (that is quite prone to missing and quite prone to bouncing off of thick armor) and you have one hell of a fireworks show that could possibly result in 2 dead infantry or a couple wounds on an MC.  Not having a blast template on the main gun kills this.  Other cheaper options can still wail on tanks from afar, but offer superior infantry and MC killing power.  Increase my killing power, eh?
• One off- Hey fluff bunnies, guess what…there’s only one Pask.  That means you have to put all your egg in one basket to pull this off.  Better hope you’re going first or have some ninja deployment skills to prevent people from shooting at your expensive ass tank with a fucking target painted on it.  All it will take to shut your points sink-hole of a tank down is a shaken/stunned result.  Then poof, 10%+ of your army isn’t in the fight anymore.  Now the (possibly extant) Land Raider is free to move up into the midfield and start raping face.  OR if there is no LR and I don’t gie a shit about your Paskmobile and I move on to targets that might be able to contribute to the game.

That’s it for today.  Anybody have a real favorite Russ load out besides the obviously fantastic Demolisher with heavy flamer and no sponsons?  And I swear if anybody says that the LRMBT with a lascannon is awesome I will destroy you.  It’s not that it’s awful, but it’s really not particularly good against vehicles, thus failing the duality test.  Not good enough to qualify as the best variant at all.

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