So I got a call from Uberdark up in Kokomo, who says he's heading down to Sinclair Games (our new favorite game store) to "Spend a $#!%-load of money" on Age of Sigmar. Would I like to come over to the store and hang out while he puts stuff together?
Seeing through his ploy to get me to help him put his new minis together, I told him to head on over to my place, which is only 5 minutes away. I then called up CaulynDarr, who's been wanting to do a proper critical examination of the game. I figured we'd get Uberdark's starter-set models put together, and then do a battle report.
Model Assembly
The AoS models are beautiful, no doubt. Especially the Khornate minis. But they're a real bear to assemble. Even more so than the old Dark Vengeance set, which was way more complicated than the Space Hulk 2-piece plastics. Suffice it to say that after an hour and a half of assembly, Uberdark and I had only managed to assemble one SigMarine, and had about 7-8 more models glued legs-only to their bases. Ugh!Fortunately, when Caulyndarr showed up, he had an old Island of Blood box set with him. Giving us two complete armies (Skaven vs. High Elves) that were, when originally released, balanced against each other. So we put the AoS minis aside and just used the IoB models instead.
Q: Are The AoS Models Too Complex For Their Intended Audience?
I had played an AoS intro game over at Sinclair last Wednesday night, after a couple of good games of Flames of War. It struck me then that AoS isn't meant for adults at all. Although the box says ages 12+, I'd say the target market is actually around 10+, and with a few tweaks I'm sure my 8 year old son would be happily rolling dice and killing monsters with glee.
But while the game is definitely designed to appeal to younger players than WHFB (logical given GW's view of their player base), the models are clearly too complex for a 10-14 year old to put together. Hell, even I would have trouble, and I'm a master modeler.
So (corporate) strategy-wise... I really think that to serve their intended audience, these models needed to be no more complicated to put together than those in the Space Hulk re-release. Meaning colored 2-part plastics that you clip off the sprue and snap together without any requirement for glueing at all.
The Dark Vengeance models had more pieces, but most of the troopers were still 2-part snap-together models. Gluing was minimal. But AoS requires that every little piece (and there are many) be glued.
The other thing I'd say is that the AoS set contains too many minis for a 10-14yo audience. It's too much stuff for them to keep track of in a game. I would personally have cut the model count by at least a third, and maybe half. The plethora of billowing capes and stuff sticking this way and that also means that kids are going to break a LOT of these models while playing with, and transporting them.
Adults won't have nearly as many issues with the minis, but it speaks to the strange disconnect between what GW seems to be trying to do, and what they actually delivered.
Uberdark has been telling us on Facebook how much he loves this game (based on what he read about it, not from actually playing it), so having already sampled the game, I let him face off with Skaven against CaulynDarr's Elves.
Uber was ready to let us put some terrain down and go, but we were meanies and refused to do anything but follow the rules-as-written. Which meant rolling for random terrain in each table area. Complete with mystical powers for each terrain piece. So the Egyptian statue was inspiring, the column-thing increased the bravery of models near it, and the pool-of-water ruin on the Elf side was entrancing or something, and kept stopping CaulynDarr's units from moving. Oh and the Skaven had a hill on their side that you could sacrifice a model to in order to increase your chances to hit.
The hill in the far-left corner with the raccoon skull on it has some nasty power that nobody wanted to go near.
But... Why?
Now... look at that setup. Is it interesting? Does is look like a real place? Do the mandatory mystical powers add anything but annoying interruptions to the gameplay? Nope, nope, and nope.
So why is random mystical terrain a core part of the rules? Was it just to fill space? Was it to add needless complexity to a too-simple rules system?
Yes, people will just ignore those rules, as they do with 6th and 7th Edition 40K. But every time a group of gamers has to house-rule something, it puts another point of separation between them and every other house-ruling group out there. Design decisions like these fracture the player base instead of uniting it.
Anyway, setup went fairly quickly after that, and we were soon ready to go.
UberDark was really jazzed by how quick the game went, and I can't blame him for that. WHFB and 40K have gotten needlessly complex over the last few years, and having a battle take less than an hour and a half to play on the first reading is refreshing.
If the older games are far too fiddly, then AoS isn't fiddly enough. There are no formations or block-movement, which is essential for any kind of real tactical play in a Fantasy game. In 40K, loose formations work because every model on the table has a gun, and the game is mostly about shooting.
But if all you have is a spear or an axe, and the enemy has few guns, then you really need to block up. Which is all the Romans did when fighting the undisciplined Germans on their borders. The Germans were bigger, and had better weapons, but the Romans knew how to work together as one unit, which made all the difference. The first episode of HBO's Rome shows this perfectly.
And... We know that a simple block-based Fantasy game is possible, because we did a battle report on the first version of Kings of War a couple of years back. The play time and overall complexity was identical to Age of Sigmar, but the emphasis was on tactics instead of random LOL-sies.
But block-movement won't even be possible with the new AoS models, because they all use round or oval bases. So the gameplay pretty much boils down (and always will) to two mobs of models running into each other. Until combat devolves into one large blob of fighting in the center of the table in a sort of gun-gimped parody of 40K.
The other big problem I have is how shooting is handled. If you do have a bow or a breath weapon, there is no restriction on who you can target. You can target units in melee. You can even target units in melee when YOUR unit is in a DIFFERENT melee. Which I find utterly ridiculous.
Simplicity is a fine goal, but things should only be as simple (or complex) as they need to be. And... This game needs more complexity to avoid these WTF moments that keep popping up.
CaulynDarr didn't have a base (lost or broke it) for his Griffon-Rider, but that didn't matter, because AoS doesn't use bases for anything but holding up the model. All distances (though this will be house-ruled too) are measured to/from the closest parts of the models involved. So we just put the Griffon down on the table, where it looked like it was giving the JAZZ HANDS!!! to the enemy.
But then it killed both Rat Ogres with its four, YES FOUR melee weapons. All of which could be used at once. One of which hits automatically and does D6 wounds.
The Skaven move in, but RAW means that they can't get within 3" of an enemy model before charging, and since that is measured to the model, and not the base, they had to form a little semi-circle just beyond the Griffon's wings.
The Skaven with the shock lance-thing is in combat though, as the tip of its lance is within an inch of the Griffon's nose.
Now, while this makes combat a bit more picturesque, measuring model to model is something that can be RIDICULOUSLY abused by all the WAAC players that will flock-to, and have a field day abusing this system by modeling for advantage. Expect to see super-sized lances that add 3" to a model's charge distance. As well as flowing banners that always point forward. Or tactically re-sculpted wings that point forward in one direction instead of outwards to the side.
The Skaven General charges (with the aid of his forward-pointing staff) into a High Elf Spearman unit. He kills a few, but then fails his roll to skitter away and dies.
The Griffon held on despite all the troops thrown against it, but UberDark charged in one of those poison globe things and killed it with a lucky roll. There's no consolidation though, so...
Horn to tail! GOTCHA!!!
Note that with the way Morale checks work, you take your casualties, roll a D6, add them together, and then subtract your bravery stat. Whatever number is left is how many additional wounds the unit takes. Yes, every unit is undead now apparently.
Now consider that Heroes never take Morale checks. Consider what that will mean for the forces that people bring to the table. Because you'll lose FAR more models in a unit to morale checks than actual shooting or melee attacks. So why bring units?
For instance, while things are looking dire for the Skaven right now, the lone Skaven model at middle-left has a warp-lock something or another. He kills 1-2 of the 6 Elf spearmen near him with it. The Elf spears then roll horribly on their Morale check and the remaining 6 Elves run away.
Is that cool? Really? Is that how a game should go?
Then consider that because you roll to see who goes first every round, the spearmen could just as easily have pulled out their bows and shot down the Skaven that ended up killing them.
So the fate that hero and that unit depended on one D6 roll. Not on any action or tactical thought on the part of the players. Even UberDark hated this aspect of the game.
Eventually it came down to the Elf bolt thrower (which can now move and fire like any other model) gunning down the remaining Skaven with the help of the spearmen (who have bows).
yay.
So there you have it. AoS is a simple, fast, but exceedingly random battle experience. One where tactics are almost non-existent beyond the order in which you decide to activate your units. So you have a little bit of the target priority considerations of 5th Edition 40k, and a little bit of the melee priority of Blood Bowl. That's it.
The randomness of who goes first each turn rubbed UberDark (who was otherwise loving the game) the wrong way. Since it means that you can't really plan anything ahead of time. You just run everyone forward and react.
We started counting up wounds to see if that was any kind of decent balancing metric, but I had to go sign a bunch of re-fi papers and didn't hear the final count. The guys can chime in with that in the comments.
That's a point of disagreement between UberDark and I, and I'm sure he'll chime in with his view, so I won't put words in his mouth. Did we have fun playing THIS game? Hell yeah we did. It was a blast! But what was fun about it?
And what is the end goal here? If the goal is to eventually push AoS players into 40K, then there's going to have to eventually be a 40K component to this. Which means they're probably working on a dumbed down, simplistic version of 40K that is rules-compatible with Age of Sigmar.
I had played an AoS intro game over at Sinclair last Wednesday night, after a couple of good games of Flames of War. It struck me then that AoS isn't meant for adults at all. Although the box says ages 12+, I'd say the target market is actually around 10+, and with a few tweaks I'm sure my 8 year old son would be happily rolling dice and killing monsters with glee.
But while the game is definitely designed to appeal to younger players than WHFB (logical given GW's view of their player base), the models are clearly too complex for a 10-14 year old to put together. Hell, even I would have trouble, and I'm a master modeler.
So (corporate) strategy-wise... I really think that to serve their intended audience, these models needed to be no more complicated to put together than those in the Space Hulk re-release. Meaning colored 2-part plastics that you clip off the sprue and snap together without any requirement for glueing at all.
The Dark Vengeance models had more pieces, but most of the troopers were still 2-part snap-together models. Gluing was minimal. But AoS requires that every little piece (and there are many) be glued.
The other thing I'd say is that the AoS set contains too many minis for a 10-14yo audience. It's too much stuff for them to keep track of in a game. I would personally have cut the model count by at least a third, and maybe half. The plethora of billowing capes and stuff sticking this way and that also means that kids are going to break a LOT of these models while playing with, and transporting them.
Adults won't have nearly as many issues with the minis, but it speaks to the strange disconnect between what GW seems to be trying to do, and what they actually delivered.
Setting Up
Uberdark has been telling us on Facebook how much he loves this game (based on what he read about it, not from actually playing it), so having already sampled the game, I let him face off with Skaven against CaulynDarr's Elves.
Uber was ready to let us put some terrain down and go, but we were meanies and refused to do anything but follow the rules-as-written. Which meant rolling for random terrain in each table area. Complete with mystical powers for each terrain piece. So the Egyptian statue was inspiring, the column-thing increased the bravery of models near it, and the pool-of-water ruin on the Elf side was entrancing or something, and kept stopping CaulynDarr's units from moving. Oh and the Skaven had a hill on their side that you could sacrifice a model to in order to increase your chances to hit.
The hill in the far-left corner with the raccoon skull on it has some nasty power that nobody wanted to go near.
But... Why?
Now... look at that setup. Is it interesting? Does is look like a real place? Do the mandatory mystical powers add anything but annoying interruptions to the gameplay? Nope, nope, and nope.
So why is random mystical terrain a core part of the rules? Was it just to fill space? Was it to add needless complexity to a too-simple rules system?
Yes, people will just ignore those rules, as they do with 6th and 7th Edition 40K. But every time a group of gamers has to house-rule something, it puts another point of separation between them and every other house-ruling group out there. Design decisions like these fracture the player base instead of uniting it.
Anyway, setup went fairly quickly after that, and we were soon ready to go.
The Game Is Quick
UberDark was really jazzed by how quick the game went, and I can't blame him for that. WHFB and 40K have gotten needlessly complex over the last few years, and having a battle take less than an hour and a half to play on the first reading is refreshing.
But...
If the older games are far too fiddly, then AoS isn't fiddly enough. There are no formations or block-movement, which is essential for any kind of real tactical play in a Fantasy game. In 40K, loose formations work because every model on the table has a gun, and the game is mostly about shooting.
But if all you have is a spear or an axe, and the enemy has few guns, then you really need to block up. Which is all the Romans did when fighting the undisciplined Germans on their borders. The Germans were bigger, and had better weapons, but the Romans knew how to work together as one unit, which made all the difference. The first episode of HBO's Rome shows this perfectly.
 |
| Kings of War was Fast AND Tactical! |
But block-movement won't even be possible with the new AoS models, because they all use round or oval bases. So the gameplay pretty much boils down (and always will) to two mobs of models running into each other. Until combat devolves into one large blob of fighting in the center of the table in a sort of gun-gimped parody of 40K.
And When You Can Shoot...
The other big problem I have is how shooting is handled. If you do have a bow or a breath weapon, there is no restriction on who you can target. You can target units in melee. You can even target units in melee when YOUR unit is in a DIFFERENT melee. Which I find utterly ridiculous.
Simplicity is a fine goal, but things should only be as simple (or complex) as they need to be. And... This game needs more complexity to avoid these WTF moments that keep popping up.
But Back To The Game...
CaulynDarr didn't have a base (lost or broke it) for his Griffon-Rider, but that didn't matter, because AoS doesn't use bases for anything but holding up the model. All distances (though this will be house-ruled too) are measured to/from the closest parts of the models involved. So we just put the Griffon down on the table, where it looked like it was giving the JAZZ HANDS!!! to the enemy.
 |
| UberDark was not amused |
Overpowered much? Yes, say hello to Hero-Hammer. It never left.
The Skaven with the shock lance-thing is in combat though, as the tip of its lance is within an inch of the Griffon's nose.
Now, while this makes combat a bit more picturesque, measuring model to model is something that can be RIDICULOUSLY abused by all the WAAC players that will flock-to, and have a field day abusing this system by modeling for advantage. Expect to see super-sized lances that add 3" to a model's charge distance. As well as flowing banners that always point forward. Or tactically re-sculpted wings that point forward in one direction instead of outwards to the side.
The Skaven General charges (with the aid of his forward-pointing staff) into a High Elf Spearman unit. He kills a few, but then fails his roll to skitter away and dies.
The Griffon held on despite all the troops thrown against it, but UberDark charged in one of those poison globe things and killed it with a lucky roll. There's no consolidation though, so...
Horn to tail! GOTCHA!!!
Note that with the way Morale checks work, you take your casualties, roll a D6, add them together, and then subtract your bravery stat. Whatever number is left is how many additional wounds the unit takes. Yes, every unit is undead now apparently.
Now consider that Heroes never take Morale checks. Consider what that will mean for the forces that people bring to the table. Because you'll lose FAR more models in a unit to morale checks than actual shooting or melee attacks. So why bring units?
For instance, while things are looking dire for the Skaven right now, the lone Skaven model at middle-left has a warp-lock something or another. He kills 1-2 of the 6 Elf spearmen near him with it. The Elf spears then roll horribly on their Morale check and the remaining 6 Elves run away.
Is that cool? Really? Is that how a game should go?
Then consider that because you roll to see who goes first every round, the spearmen could just as easily have pulled out their bows and shot down the Skaven that ended up killing them.
So the fate that hero and that unit depended on one D6 roll. Not on any action or tactical thought on the part of the players. Even UberDark hated this aspect of the game.
Eventually it came down to the Elf bolt thrower (which can now move and fire like any other model) gunning down the remaining Skaven with the help of the spearmen (who have bows).
yay.
So there you have it. AoS is a simple, fast, but exceedingly random battle experience. One where tactics are almost non-existent beyond the order in which you decide to activate your units. So you have a little bit of the target priority considerations of 5th Edition 40k, and a little bit of the melee priority of Blood Bowl. That's it.
The randomness of who goes first each turn rubbed UberDark (who was otherwise loving the game) the wrong way. Since it means that you can't really plan anything ahead of time. You just run everyone forward and react.
We started counting up wounds to see if that was any kind of decent balancing metric, but I had to go sign a bunch of re-fi papers and didn't hear the final count. The guys can chime in with that in the comments.
But... Was It Fun?
- Making fun of the rules
- Forcing UberDark to play strict RAW instead of house-ruling (for amusing reactions)
- Making fun of certain people we know that would break the rules
- Coming up with ridiculous, but legal, ways to break the rules (if we were that guy)
We all agreed that the game was fun in a it's-so-bad-it's-fun way. Like watching Plan 9 From Outer Space. But to me, that's not a healthy, positive way to enjoy a game, and it certainly is not the kind of "fun" that I think will hold up past your 5th or 10th game. At which point you're left with the frustrations of the game itself, which are legion.
- No Points System For Balancing
- No Troop Formations
- Model-To-Model Measuring Instead of Base-To-Base
- No Movement or Shooting Restrictions
- Hit/Wound Rolls Which Don't Rely On The Skills Of Your Targets
- Overpowered (instead of supporting) Characters
- Rolling To See Who Goes First Each Turn
- Simplistic Run-To-The-Center Gameplay
- No Tactics Other Than Activation Priority
We all agreed though that there was a certain core of something in Age of Sigmar that could be really great, and if the price were a bit lower I'd have no problem buying it to play with my oldest son, who's 8. But it's half-baked and sloppy. To the point that I could (and have) made up better rules on the spot to have Space Marines fight dinosaurs on the basement rug with my boys.
It's A Question Of Development Strategy
If this game were an adjunct to regular WHFB, then I'd have no problem with it. It would fill a much-needed hole in GW's lineup. But instead of simply making this a WHFB gateway game, GW has gone all-in on AoS being a WHFB replacement, and it's pretty obvious to me that they're positioning it as an entry-level game that will eventually funnel young players into 40k, which is their only profitable game right now. All of the design cues are there, from the ovoid bases to the SigMarines themselves.
Ok, so WHFB wasn't selling well enough for GW to continue supporting it. I get that. I also get that they absolutely DO need an entry-level game to pull players in. But nuking Fantasy to do it? All that does is piss off what loyal players remain. Many of the people I know that have gotten fed up with the state of 40K had gone back to Fantasy to avoid the WAAC nonsense. Now that option is gone, and this game will draw WAACs like bugs to a halogen porch light. Not good.
Looking at the strategy further... They want more kids and casual adults in the hobby, which is why the rules are dumbed down. But they also have to sell to their existing customers, which is why the models are overly complex. The game is therefore trying to serve two contradictory goals. The casual types don't want to spend hours modeling just to play their first game (X-Wing or Imperial Assault is their perfect impulse purchase), and the die-hards are going to be put off by the simplistic nature of the game the detailed models are made for.
And what is the end goal here? If the goal is to eventually push AoS players into 40K, then there's going to have to eventually be a 40K component to this. Which means they're probably working on a dumbed down, simplistic version of 40K that is rules-compatible with Age of Sigmar. I think (hope?) GW isn't stupid enough to release an "Age of Sanguinius" that totally replaces 40k. But nothing would surprise me at this point. Guess it depends on how well AoS sells, how badly the 40K numbers are going down, and the cluelessness of management.
Regardless though, Mantic is throughly enjoying the backlash, and is releasing the 2nd Edition of Kings of War as a free download. I see no reason not to give it a read. The first version was a lot of (healthy) fun, and Farmpunk and I would have played it regularly if there had been some WHFB players on the north side of town to play it with.
So in conclusion... The game is good for some initial laughs (in a bad Nicolas Cage movie kind of way), and will appeal to younger players. But it's definitely not a game for adults, and I would only buy it to keep the Khorne models while selling off the SigMarines on eBay.
If you want a fun, fast, fantasy-ish skirmish game, then I hear Saga is a blast. While if you want something better than what WHFB was from a tactical play standpoint, you're probably better off with Kings of War. Otherwise stick with WHFB for as long as you're able.
Peace.