Welcome to my third battle report from the recent North East Open tournament. In this game, my Deathwatch army would be facing off against Connor and his Imperial Knights and Astra Militarum force.
Ugh, another three Knights at the same tournament! I really hate Imperial Knights. They are no fun for the game and make most mono-Codex armies completely useless. They invalidate so many army builds in the game and are pretty boring to play with or against, in my opinion. With the Castellan in the game, there is little point in taking other vehicles, Knights or monsters in an army. If you don't get the first turn, they are dead.
The mission was modified Frontline Warfare, but scoring at the end of each turn rather than at the end of the game, and using Hammer and Anvil deployment. The mission would also use kill points. There were one objective in your deployment zone (worth 1 pt), two in the centre of the battlefield (worth 2 pts each) and one in your opponent's deployment zone (worth 3 pts).
Battalion Detachment
Deathwatch Watch Master- Guardian Spear (D)
Watch Captain- Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Bolt Pistol, Storm Shield (WC1)
9 Deathwatch Veterans- 9 Storm Bolters, 2 Storm Shields, Chainswords, Vanguard Veteran- Bolt Pistol, Storm Shield (KT1)
10 Intercessors- Bolt Rifles, Bolt Pistols (KT2)
5 Veterans- 2 Missile Launchers, 3 Stalker Bolters, Chainswords, Terminator- Power Fist, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher (KT3)
5 Veterans- 2 Frag Cannons, 3 Shotguns, Storm Shield (KT4)
5 Veterans- Missile Launcher, 2 Heavy Bolters, Bolters, Terminator, Power Fist, Assault Cannon (KT5)
10 Veterans- 6 Bolters, Meltagun, 3 Combi-Meltas, chainswords (KT6)
Rhino- Two Storm Bolters (R1)
Rhino- Two Storm Bolters (R2)
Razorback- Twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter (Rz)
Outrider Detachment
Watch Captain- Jump Pack, Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Lord of Hidden Knowledge (warlord trait), The Tome of Ectoclades (Relic) (WC2)
4 Bikers- Twin Bolters, Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield, Chainswords (B1)
4 Bikers- Twin Bolters, Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield, Chainswords (B2)
4 Bikers- Twin Bolters, Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Storm Shield, Chainswords (B3)
Connor's army consisted of:
Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum, Cadian)
Company Commander- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grand Strategist Warlord trait
Company Commander- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila relic
Infantry Squad- Lasguns
Infantry Squad- Lasguns
5 Tempestus Scions
Heavy Weapons Squad- Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad- Mortars
Outrider Detachment (Astra Militarum, Cadian)
Company Commander- Laspistol, Chainsword
Hellhound- Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Hellhound- Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Hellhound- Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Super-Heavy Detachment (Imperial Knights, House Raven)
Knight Castellan- Plasma Decimator, two Twin Meltaguns, Volcano Lance, 4 Shieldbreaker Missiles, Cawl's Wrath Relic
Knight Crusader- Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon
Knight Gallant- Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet
When I saw the list on the Best Coast Pairings app, I asked if Connor wanted to swap opponents. This game was a foregone conclusion from the start and was unlikely to be fun for either of us. He didn't want to know, so I went through the motions of the game anyway.
We set up the objectives as shown below:
I won the roll off for deployment zone and set up my forces. I combat squad the Intercessors and put them on the objective on the right flank. I put two units of Bikers in front of them, with the third unit beside the Rhino on the left. I put a Rhino and Razorback behind the ruins to my left, with the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter Kill Teams in the ruins.
Connor put his Hellhounds on the right flank, with a Mortar team in the centre and one on the ruins to the left. The Castellan went in the centre, with the other two Knights on the left. The Infantry squads spread out to block my deep striking units.
I lost the roll off for first turn and failed to seize the initiative. I used 2CP on prepared positions to help my Bikers hopefully stay alive a bit longer.
TURN 1- IMPERIAL KNIGHTS
The Imperial Knights advanced on the left flank, moving up on the Deathwatch. On the right flank, the Hellhounds advanced on the unit of Bikers in front of them.
In the shooting phase, the Hellhounds opened fire on the Deathwatch Bikers. The first did four wounds, and I failed three 3+ saves, losing one Biker. The second fired on the Bikers, wounding 8 times and killing two more.
The Crusader opened fire on the Rhino and the back unit of Bikers in front of it. The Thermal Cannon got 6 shots, hitting and wounding the enemy vehicle four times and obliterating it. One of the passengers inside died as they disembarked. The Gatling Cannon managed to kill one of the Bikers.
The final Hellhound targeted the newly emerged Kill Team, killing one of the squad.
The two Mortar Heavy Weapons teams fired at the last Biker in the centre, wounding him 6 times, but failing to get past his armour.
The Castellan opened fire on the Deathwatch Bikers. The lone Biker was slain, while the other squad was wounded 7 times. The Storm Shield of the Sergeant managed to block all the attacks and the squad survived.
In the charge phase, the Knight Gallant made a 12" charge on the Bikers with a command point re-roll! The Knight struck at the Deathwatch, killing off the squad.
At the end of his turn, Connor scored three kill points, one objective point and first strike to give him 9 points.
TURN 1- DEATHWATCH
The Bikers on the right flank moved up on the objective. On the right flank, the Frag Cannon Kill Team advanced onto the objective. The Kill Teams in the back ruins moved up into firing positions on the Knights. For my mission tactics, I chose the Lord of War and Heavy Support tactics.
In the shooting phase, the Missile Launcher Kill Team fired on the Knight Gallant. One of the four missiles hit, but failed to wound. The Stalker Bolters of the squad managed to do a single wound on the Knight.
The Razorback fired at the Gallant, hitting once but failing to wound. The Heavy Bolter Kill Team fired at the Knight, but did no damage.
The Bikers fired at the Infantry Squad in the centre, killing six of the squad. The Kill Team on the left fired their Frag Cannons at the nearest Hellhound, wounding 6 times, but failing to get past their armour.
In the morale phase, the rest of the Guardsman squad fled the battlefield.
At the end of my turn, I scored one kill point, First Strike and got 5 objective points.
VICTORY POINTS:
Deathwatch- 11
Imperial Knights- 9
At this point, I decided to concede the game. My first turn had been horrendous, doing a single wound to one Knight.
If the game did not have kill points, I might have fought on, but my defeat was inevitable, so I didn't feel like prolonging it. I had already fought to the death against 3 Knights in the last game and didn't feel like going through the motions again.
AFTER-BATTLE THOUGHTS
That went pretty much as expected. Any mission against Knights that involves kill points is going to be an uphill struggle for most armies, as there is an inherent imbalance between the two armies.
I thought I would give it a go in this game, but the massive damage that the Knights did in the first turn, coupled with a successful 12" charge was seriously demoralising and put an end to the game.
In the following turn, the Knight Gallant would have charged the Intercessors and wiped them out, consolidating onto the objective. I would not have been able to clear it off the objective for the rest of the game, so Connor would just be wracking up the points each turn, assuming I had anything left on the board at the end of his second turn.
The tactic I used in the last game against the Castellan would not work, as I would not get the re-rolls to wound against any of the Knights in this game.
I have a serious hatred of going up against Knights now. This one army has pretty much single-handedly ruined tournaments for me in 8th edition. With most of the armies that I play, I can barely deal with one Knight, never mind the 3+ that I always seem to come up against at tournaments these days.
A toughness 8 model with over 24 wounds should not be able to get a 2+ armour save and 3+ invulnerable save, in my opinion. Many mono-build armies struggle to deal with Knights and they invalidate many units or army builds in the game. I don't want to have to bring my own Castellan or front load an army just to deal with Imperial Knights in every game that I play.
I like to run a balanced list that has a good firebase, some good mobility and can deal with vehicles and infantry in equal measure. Such an army is pretty useless against Knights. The best way to deal with them is in combat, and unless I want to run 3 Blood Angels Smash Captains, there is little in the Marine army that can take them on in combat with enough efficiency to win the game.
For me, Knights are 40k in easy mode. I don't think it takes much skill to win with them in most games. If your opponent doesn't have the tools to deal with the Castellan or Avenger Gatling Cannon Knight, they can just point at several units to eliminate each turn with little to stop them from demolishing the army over several turns.
I really hope they get dealt with in the new FAQ, as they are one of the things that are seriously ruining the game for me. I used to enjoy going to tournaments to compete against different armies and players, but now it just appears to be getting stopped by Knights for at least one out of three games.
I would perhaps like it more if the tournament mission formats did not favour them so heavily. With kill points and end of game objectives, most of my armies have no chance against them whatsoever. I would much prefer a maelstrom tournament, at least then I could have a chance to win on objectives.
So, of my three games at the North East Open, one was fun and challenging and two were foregone conclusions before a die had been rolled. Unfortunately, this has been the way that the last few tournaments have gone for me, and have kind of soured me to going to any.
I don't want to have to completely redesign my existing armies simply to be able to play a game against Knights and have even a slim chance of winning. Neither do I want to run soup lists simply to be able to compete and actually have an enjoyable game at a tournament.
I'll be doing an army review for what little it is worth. I don't think there is much to gleam from my experiences, other than my Deathwatch cannot deal with Knights.
Connor's army consisted of:
Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum, Cadian)
Company Commander- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grand Strategist Warlord trait
Company Commander- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila relic
Infantry Squad- Lasguns
Infantry Squad- Lasguns
5 Tempestus Scions
Heavy Weapons Squad- Mortars
Heavy Weapons Squad- Mortars
Outrider Detachment (Astra Militarum, Cadian)
Company Commander- Laspistol, Chainsword
Hellhound- Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Hellhound- Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Hellhound- Inferno Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Super-Heavy Detachment (Imperial Knights, House Raven)
Knight Castellan- Plasma Decimator, two Twin Meltaguns, Volcano Lance, 4 Shieldbreaker Missiles, Cawl's Wrath Relic
Knight Crusader- Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon
Knight Gallant- Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet
When I saw the list on the Best Coast Pairings app, I asked if Connor wanted to swap opponents. This game was a foregone conclusion from the start and was unlikely to be fun for either of us. He didn't want to know, so I went through the motions of the game anyway.
We set up the objectives as shown below:
I won the roll off for deployment zone and set up my forces. I combat squad the Intercessors and put them on the objective on the right flank. I put two units of Bikers in front of them, with the third unit beside the Rhino on the left. I put a Rhino and Razorback behind the ruins to my left, with the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter Kill Teams in the ruins.
Connor put his Hellhounds on the right flank, with a Mortar team in the centre and one on the ruins to the left. The Castellan went in the centre, with the other two Knights on the left. The Infantry squads spread out to block my deep striking units.
I lost the roll off for first turn and failed to seize the initiative. I used 2CP on prepared positions to help my Bikers hopefully stay alive a bit longer.
TURN 1- IMPERIAL KNIGHTS
The Imperial Knights advanced on the left flank, moving up on the Deathwatch. On the right flank, the Hellhounds advanced on the unit of Bikers in front of them.
In the shooting phase, the Hellhounds opened fire on the Deathwatch Bikers. The first did four wounds, and I failed three 3+ saves, losing one Biker. The second fired on the Bikers, wounding 8 times and killing two more.
The Crusader opened fire on the Rhino and the back unit of Bikers in front of it. The Thermal Cannon got 6 shots, hitting and wounding the enemy vehicle four times and obliterating it. One of the passengers inside died as they disembarked. The Gatling Cannon managed to kill one of the Bikers.
The final Hellhound targeted the newly emerged Kill Team, killing one of the squad.
The two Mortar Heavy Weapons teams fired at the last Biker in the centre, wounding him 6 times, but failing to get past his armour.
The Castellan opened fire on the Deathwatch Bikers. The lone Biker was slain, while the other squad was wounded 7 times. The Storm Shield of the Sergeant managed to block all the attacks and the squad survived.
In the charge phase, the Knight Gallant made a 12" charge on the Bikers with a command point re-roll! The Knight struck at the Deathwatch, killing off the squad.
At the end of his turn, Connor scored three kill points, one objective point and first strike to give him 9 points.
TURN 1- DEATHWATCH
The Bikers on the right flank moved up on the objective. On the right flank, the Frag Cannon Kill Team advanced onto the objective. The Kill Teams in the back ruins moved up into firing positions on the Knights. For my mission tactics, I chose the Lord of War and Heavy Support tactics.
In the shooting phase, the Missile Launcher Kill Team fired on the Knight Gallant. One of the four missiles hit, but failed to wound. The Stalker Bolters of the squad managed to do a single wound on the Knight.
The Razorback fired at the Gallant, hitting once but failing to wound. The Heavy Bolter Kill Team fired at the Knight, but did no damage.
The Bikers fired at the Infantry Squad in the centre, killing six of the squad. The Kill Team on the left fired their Frag Cannons at the nearest Hellhound, wounding 6 times, but failing to get past their armour.
In the morale phase, the rest of the Guardsman squad fled the battlefield.
At the end of my turn, I scored one kill point, First Strike and got 5 objective points.
VICTORY POINTS:
Deathwatch- 11
Imperial Knights- 9
At this point, I decided to concede the game. My first turn had been horrendous, doing a single wound to one Knight.
If the game did not have kill points, I might have fought on, but my defeat was inevitable, so I didn't feel like prolonging it. I had already fought to the death against 3 Knights in the last game and didn't feel like going through the motions again.
AFTER-BATTLE THOUGHTS
That went pretty much as expected. Any mission against Knights that involves kill points is going to be an uphill struggle for most armies, as there is an inherent imbalance between the two armies.
I thought I would give it a go in this game, but the massive damage that the Knights did in the first turn, coupled with a successful 12" charge was seriously demoralising and put an end to the game.
In the following turn, the Knight Gallant would have charged the Intercessors and wiped them out, consolidating onto the objective. I would not have been able to clear it off the objective for the rest of the game, so Connor would just be wracking up the points each turn, assuming I had anything left on the board at the end of his second turn.
The tactic I used in the last game against the Castellan would not work, as I would not get the re-rolls to wound against any of the Knights in this game.
I have a serious hatred of going up against Knights now. This one army has pretty much single-handedly ruined tournaments for me in 8th edition. With most of the armies that I play, I can barely deal with one Knight, never mind the 3+ that I always seem to come up against at tournaments these days.
A toughness 8 model with over 24 wounds should not be able to get a 2+ armour save and 3+ invulnerable save, in my opinion. Many mono-build armies struggle to deal with Knights and they invalidate many units or army builds in the game. I don't want to have to bring my own Castellan or front load an army just to deal with Imperial Knights in every game that I play.
I like to run a balanced list that has a good firebase, some good mobility and can deal with vehicles and infantry in equal measure. Such an army is pretty useless against Knights. The best way to deal with them is in combat, and unless I want to run 3 Blood Angels Smash Captains, there is little in the Marine army that can take them on in combat with enough efficiency to win the game.
For me, Knights are 40k in easy mode. I don't think it takes much skill to win with them in most games. If your opponent doesn't have the tools to deal with the Castellan or Avenger Gatling Cannon Knight, they can just point at several units to eliminate each turn with little to stop them from demolishing the army over several turns.
I really hope they get dealt with in the new FAQ, as they are one of the things that are seriously ruining the game for me. I used to enjoy going to tournaments to compete against different armies and players, but now it just appears to be getting stopped by Knights for at least one out of three games.
I would perhaps like it more if the tournament mission formats did not favour them so heavily. With kill points and end of game objectives, most of my armies have no chance against them whatsoever. I would much prefer a maelstrom tournament, at least then I could have a chance to win on objectives.
So, of my three games at the North East Open, one was fun and challenging and two were foregone conclusions before a die had been rolled. Unfortunately, this has been the way that the last few tournaments have gone for me, and have kind of soured me to going to any.
I don't want to have to completely redesign my existing armies simply to be able to play a game against Knights and have even a slim chance of winning. Neither do I want to run soup lists simply to be able to compete and actually have an enjoyable game at a tournament.
I'll be doing an army review for what little it is worth. I don't think there is much to gleam from my experiences, other than my Deathwatch cannot deal with Knights.