Well well well, a new Rave review , how long HAS it I been ? firstly a wee hobby update. I have been taking a nice break form hobby for the most part, though I have not been completely Idle There is a 99% assembled Tantalus (twas a pig) and a fair number of Combined Infinity models to show for the time, I was a little frustrated last weekend as I am waiting for the micro art bases for my Infinity stuff before I start painting them and would have been a goodly chunk of the way through the Tantalus Paintwork by now but am waiting on a replacement part from FW, essentially wrote off the weekend, its funny as I have plenty of assembled and even base coated DE stuff to work on but that’s not the stuff I have the enthusiasm for right now , I’m even still waiting on my replacement BF tray, what is it with the mini industry sometimes ? looks like this weekend is going to be written off too as I have called both places that ‘should’ have got stuff to me by now and both have said the things wont be with me til next week …… Fail
I think I’ll assemble the Scourges and maybe force myself to pick up something I don’t want to paint ….. Reavers Certainly need doing, a couple of my friends have put in for various Court of the Archon for my impending year-closer-to-death day so I’m not allowed to buy any let alone paint any….. which is the only other unit I have any enthusiasm for atm…..
On the subject of THAT particular day, Rants Birthday has been arbitrarily set to Halloween, There is going to be a competition/giveaway amongst other things so stay tuned.
Anyway this is turning into a ramble so I’ll get on with the article at hand.
Amour 11 on a heavy support choice is hardly anything to write home about, however it’s the highest AV in the book and is only narrowly edged out for ‘on paper’ survivability by the closed-topped void raven , however on a points efficiency and ease of gaining cover basis I feel that the Ravager has the edge.
Subsequently this combination of good value and being the only source of multiple long ranged mobile lances means it is a staple of ‘competitive’ spam lists, for the record it’s a nightmarish dogsh1t to paint properly.
Early Ravager Prototype
God, now I’m sat here trying to write about it it’s tough to find much to write other than It’s cheap, most cost effective AT heavy support we have , does not mean it’ s good , just grin and bear it m’kay ? and it often edges out the other choices because we need the AT , anti Infantry is pretty much covered just by taking a DE army , well for most lists anyway.
The Razorwing is 40 points more for a the loss of a lance and is harder to hide / gain cover for , of course it nukes the ever living Mum-Ra out of things but that may not be required if the rest of your list covers it (Venom spam) but you will always always ALWAYS need more lances, if they were a bit better than they are for their price and availability this would be less the case.
I hate spam and I think a list can cope loosing a single lance as well as finding the points for a Razorwing, I don’t know about 1500, I would prob have to ditch it, not that I will play 1500 voluntarily anymore …. To be honest a pair of ravagers should be the staple default choice for any DE army IMO, I have written a flyer themed list that does away with them alltogether but the rest of the list has to pick up the slack so to speak.
Ravagers I will rarely reserve, I want them on the table nice and early laying down suppression (that’s all they can really be relied on for) if its spearhead and my opponent is going first I’ll reserve them, I often have an internal struggle when I have won first turn, my inclination is to gamble on their small chances of a seize to have good shooting position/range from the get go, I have been punished for this in the past, not so long ago I had been experimenting with more aggressive deployment and had the Initiative stolen from me three games in a row, ouch subsequently I just won’t risk it, always set it up in cover or at least so a minimum of your opponents ranged threats can draw uncovered los to it, with Tlos it’s always going to be kind of hard to actually hide but the opportunity does arise, I would humbly suggest you take that opportunity when you can as the ravager has the speed to come out of hiding , hopefully take up another good/covered position and get the drop on it’s targets, in a lot of games it is just flat impossible to hide and things like psyflemen will punish you horribly if they get to shoot, all you can do is put lances on them and hope that if/when you do penetrate you don’t stun/shake the damn thing , immobilized results are a stab I the back from your dice, send them to the microwave, essentially 50% of results do effectively jack. (that stupid rule alone is enough to make me want to disintegrate Ward, let alone the rest of Codex Rape knights)
Be sneaky with them , move from cover to cover, if there is none, use your other units to give them cover , your opponent probably won’t fear them as they are just not that effective but if he is sensible he will shut you AT down as fast as he can, Ravagers will be a priority so make it as hard as you can for them. On the subject of mobility Ravagers are quite good for working around for side and occasionally even rear shots, get lances on AV 10 and they are a different animal.
I would go for a lengthy discussion of the options available however most of them can be discarded without a second thought, bare minimum I run Flickers they are good to have, we all know this. My reasoning for them to be the primary, nay compulsory choice is simple, any of the weapons your opponent bought for long range AT/suppression will be in range weather you have night fields or not, that’s not to say NF’s are useless but for me they are secondary and certainly not compulsory if points are tight, with the Meteoric rise of the GK I am starting to see a case for their general inclusion alongside FF’s but that does see me needing to find up to 90 points in my 1750 army and does jack to help with the inevitable psyfles, NF’s will help protect from medium ranged armies and deepstriking melta (to some extent) they are oddly of more use on Raiders and anything that’s going to be up close (I have always thought they should subtract 6 from your opponents Nightight range too )
Why can I connect this to Ward/GK ?
The rest of the options are dross and pointless except for Maybe Retrofires , though if you were doing a derp strike list why would you not take the duke ? not that I can really recommend deepstiking Ravagers, ever
In summary it’s the bang-for-buck Heavy support choice that you will take because there is nothing better in the same price range, yes a Voidraven is better but offers very similar stats for a higher price , every time I read the rules for the Void mine after reading the glorious fluff I feel like a kicked puppy.
This kicked puppy
That’s not to say I would not take a Void Raven, actually I would…. but that’s a discussion for the next Rave Review ;o)
Wow, no way would I take a Void Raven over a Ravager. Stastically the same…why pay more points? Void Mine is something I’d use so rarely I can’t even imagine. I’m really anxious to read why you’d like to take one!
Not exactly over a Ravager, just think about it for a bit.
The Void mine is a rotten shitfestival, should at very least be a large blast with ap1 under the hole.
finished building my Tantalus last week, have used it in 2 games so far, vs Blood Angels it shredded an assault squad in 2 turns but was limited by the amount of terrain on the table (as you know its a biiiig model)… second game vs Blood Angels/GK it had lots of fun, destroying a sanguin guard squad in a single shot, as well as putting a significant number of wounds on Mordrack (GK Special character) and his retinue before finishing off the game by ripping apart half of another BA assault squad.
Great fun to use, highly effective against Marines etc but doesnt really give you anything you dont already have a fair ammount of (aside from the highest AV in the army and a RIDICULOUSLY cool looking model)…. complete B**ger to put together but demanded a lot of attention at the spikey club
One of two Razorwings assembled thus far and all I can is Day-uuummmm. The lines are sexier than anything and it’s just so much easier to assemble than a Ravager.
I can’t deny that a Ravager is by far the best priced heavy support unit points-wise but it takes a major hit in the usability department for financial reasons and for ease-of-building issues.
In all the games I’ve played thus far, the Ravager has ever been the start performer I thought it would be. Final Judgement will be passed this weekend when I roll out the 2 Razorwings and compare them to the Ravager. In spite of the cost difference, my money is on the flying blades.
The planes will kill infantry better thats all, they do weaken the army VS mech, which is a weakness for DE already, we discussed this ;o)
Does not for a second mean your list can’t /wont be acceptable.
The Void seems amazing till you actually take a proper look at the rules for the mine, sure you can now boost and drop it thanks to the FAQ, but at the same time it scatters, normal blast…..
Had they given it the four free missiles ala the Jetfighter I think it would have been much more fairly priced, but then the ‘Fighter probably should have got the void lances as well…
The nifty marine killing missiles are also great, but with cover the way it is these days….. not exactly amazing, its like a one shot plasma cannon except 3x the price.
As with so many things in the Dark Eldar codex you look at it and kind of wonder what yard stick they measured the points costs from.
The Void has been done a terrible injustice in the rules, I don’t want to talk about that here so much as it’s in the next Retro Review.
I was supposed to do beasts before heavy support but I refuse to buy them at that ridiculous price so have not played with them.
I would rather write a review having played a good few games with them, currently there will not be a rave review for Beasts as IMO GW have ruled them out as a viable codex choice by making them unaffordable to all but the most rabid and overpaid gamers.
Completely agree with the beastmaster issue. I have seen only 4 beastmaster units used in all the tournaments I have been to.
One was just as small counter attack unit, one was used by a person who won best painted, one was using completely different models, and my own ones which while using GW models, does not use one of the official models (converted hellions = beastmasters, old choas hounds = krymera, forgeworld flying rippers = razorwings).
I’ve found the beastmasters inconsistant because of their low leadership (only 8 with no way to improve it) and little armour means that sometimes they bounce and other games they shred all before them.
Returning to the dicussion of ravagers I completely agree that they are excellent, with such a low cost for their firepower. Not having venom spam I took a razorwing to help against hordes, but the ravagers have the best mobility, range and toughness (not that their tough) of our anti tank options for a bargain basement cost.
Ravagers are essential for venom spam lists because they are the best ranged anti tank, but they also normally die the easiest because they are an obvious first target for the opponent. If they can kill the venom spam’s anti tank (particularly long ranged anti tank) they can take the edge from all the poison if they can keep infantry in transports.
Had my first game with the Razorwings today against Orks and they performed adequately, not stunningly, but not badly either.
In total, both flyers accounted for approximately 4 Killer Kans, stun-locking a Big Mek, 3 Koptas and upwards of 30 Boys while only 1 plane and 1 weapon.
Oddly enough, the Ravager practically stole the show by rolling a bunch of 6’s in the first turn, causing the Battle Wagon to blow up in the top of the first turn. I’m guessing that the Ravager felt it needed to prove its worth now that it had some competition on the field.
All in all the game went as it should go with Dark Eldar. The mobile anti-tank was alive long enough to cripple most of my opponent’s biggest threats, at which point I still had my 2 Squads of embarked Trueborn, Scourges and a Razorwing to snipe away at the slower elements. The Wyches played cat and mouse with mid-field elements, buying me time to pull back a bit for better shooting positions.
I know a lot of people don’t advocate buying both Fields and Shields on their vehicles but I have to disagree. The amount of damage I managed to avoid due to cover saves or range shenanigans has paid for itself many times over since I’ve started playing DE. Spending the points suits my play style quite well but it might be for everyone.
The Baron and the Stealthed Scourges worked quite well as a flanking distraction, losing only one model throughout the 6 six turns in exchange of 2 Kans and 3 Kopters.
Now If only the planes had more than 4 missiles…
Dark_Gear, how many scourges do you run, and what weapon config?
4 missiles is plenty, scourges should really only be run in fives with Haywires, though I would prefer Reavers in almost all situations. Scourges are rubbish vs GK but will be entertaining vs necrons quantum sheilding.
I run my scourges as Sorrow suggests, in 5’s with haywires. You’ll find my whole list in the comments to the previous post: To Razor or not to Razor.
You can also see my painting progress and ask me more questions about my list over in the project blog I’ve got on DakkaDakka which is what I’m linking to as a website.
Hmm interesting, I’ll take a look.
I’m actually taking a different tac with scourges, haywires seem a bit unreliable to me, despite the extra range, rolling for damage + cover… especially since in typical GWS fashion they made the regular weapon totally useless even against infantry…
You should start a blog for your army progress :p Dakka is so clunky
Thanks for the interest in wanting me to start a “real blog” but as clunky as Dakka may be, it’s nowhere near as clunky as wordpress or blogger if you want a custom theme…
Even though I’m very comfortable with CSS/HTML, good god do I hate PHP!
We’re not here to talk about code, we’re here to talk about plastic crack so, on with the show. How do you run your Scourges?
I’d love to be taking Dark Glances on Scourges but sadly, Jump infantry don’t have relentless so it’s either a waste of a turn’s shooting or a waste of mobility. Heat Lances are fine if you want suicidal deep-striking unit. Blasters are just well, blasters, whereas at least Haywire blasters are a tad more reliable than DL’s or blasters because, not only do they actually have a longer range than blasters, they also have the option of being fired on the move and alsol glancing on 2+. It’s like everyone is brought down to AV10. In other words, Haywire blasters are the odd hybrid that averages out how each of the Dark Eldar’s more typical guns would behave if it could both range and mobility. It’s not perfect but it’s better than either of the two “parent guns”, except when facing Grey Knights, then Heat Lances are a better way to go..
I’ve actually been trying to line up some games with 10 man Scourge squads with either blasters or heatlances and a Haemi (just for the token) – the unit can be quite nasty to kill and is good versus tanks or infantry.
My first choice is heatlances due to the close range capabilities (‘reliability’), but blasters have an effective 30″ with JI movement.
I’m also tempted to try 7-8 man units with 2 heatlance and a Haemy to reduce points but add a unit that will be perceived as really dangerous, have reasonable (for DE) AT and be a tough nut to crack.
The HWB’s have the almost automatic glance ability, but are practically useless versus infantry (seriously GWS why not be AP1 and make them a real tank hunting weapon with utility!) and the chance of a penetrating hit is actually lower than blasters.
The one HWB advantage that I see but don’t know if its legal, is whether you can deny your opponent cover saves againt the haywire effect, the general answer seems to be no, so I’m not really sold.
A bit like haywire grenades, which would have been awesome if they could be used with a models base profile attacks, I just find the concept interesting but the actual effect less amazing.
Its gone terribly quiet around here for the last week!
Thanks to everyone for their feedback on the Razorwings. The planes worked like a charm in all 3 rounds.
I had my first tournament with the Dark Eldar yesterday and pulled off a 3-0 win. I played like I was Imperial and stayed back as much as possible, using my Wyches and the Scourges to run distractions so I could keep the rest of the shooty units to just melt everything at their leisure. I spent all 3 rounds expecting to see my troops start to explode but that didn’t really happen. Killpoints by the end of the day ended up being 28 kills vs 12 deaths.
The whole of last week was spent painting and even though I barely had 5 vehicles that had been splashed 3 weeks ago, come Sunday, everything had the required 3 colours blocked off. The plan is to get the whole army completed and on a display before the next tournament on november 26th.
In the third round I also learned a great new sneaky trick with the Wyches when it comes to assaulting an IG parking lot.This trick will only if there are disembarked enemy models in close proximity to vehicles. Zoom your raider and disembark your 10 Wyches, forming a conga line so you can assault the infantry and as many vehicles as possibles. In my particular case, I had 5 wyches in base contact with infantry and wrapped around 3 other vehicles. I immobilised 1 vehicle, shook the other and wiffed on the 3rd. The real kicker with this trick is on my opponent’s when he tried to get his vehicles away from the Wyches, he couldn’t tank shock them because they were embroiled in melee. The only the stuck in vehicles could get from me was to go around the Wyches. And in the case of one vehicle, because it was sadwyched between my Wyches and a Wrecked vehicle, the only way it could get away was to move through one of it’s vehicles, and therefore make a dangerous terrain test. Also, because the only the vehicle could clear the wreck was to move more than 6 inches, which means the squad inside couldn’t shoot that turn. To make things even sweeter that squad of wyches actually survived the whole round. When Wyches work well, they work really well.