To start, congrats on the award at TOS, judging from the battle reports, it was well earned and well deserved. A major stinking shame about the painting but what can you do? Your army may not have gotten the credit it deserved but judging from the comments on your blog and on flickr, I’d say it definitely got some great exposure.
Regarding the subject at hand, I’m trying to build up my force up to 1750 points and I’m trying to see if it’s worth it to run 2 Razorwings 1 Ravager rather than 1 Razorwings and 2 Ravagers. From reading your tournaments I can see you had great success with the fighters but are they, in your experience, worth running in pairs to get the extra redundancy and assurance that “something” will show up by turn 3?
Thanks in advance,
Hello Dark gear,
As for ToS I feel I had some luck there too, as much as I like a good old supervilian style gloat I feel uncomfortable claiming it was all me, true I had some bad dice but there were a couple of times the dice were very kind to me at just the right moment, one particular instance sticks in my mind….
Thanks for your email, yeah my feelings about best painted have mellowed somewhat, my army is what it is. Also since you emailed GW spotted them on Flickr and has asked me to write some stuff and ran a feature on” Whats New Today”
1750 Is a good level, my favorite for competitive games, 1500 is too tight and you just end up stripping down to the most soullessly efficient thing you can create (well that’s my inclination anyway) with 1750 the extra slack allows you to breathe a little and even be a little more creative with the list, if you have a solid 1500 core that really works what’s wrong with spending 250 points on some stuff you want to include ? or padding out the 1500 core with some more eclectic/experimental choices ? TBH if I really went into the 1750 I took to throne on a pure risk/efficiency basis the Incubi/Archon would be gone as both are expensive and only circumstantially useful, a couple of times when they should have been useful they have bounced so they really are in the list as an Indulgence. Anyway I digress.
Razorwings are a conundrum they cost a fair bit more than a Ravager and are harder to get cover for , FF’s help a bit in that department but its then more points. Conversely I tend to run mine with dark lances, a flickerfield and an additional splinter cannon. For me there is not even a contest with the dissies, it kills infantry stuff dead anyway so you wont particularly notice them but you will miss two lances, besides, with a splinter cannon and two lances it still has 8 shots ?
Long range AT is precious for DE there are a couple of approaches you can take, Unless the scenario or opponents setup allows you to get away with it I would pretty much always tend to reserve the Razor, obviously you need to make a judgment call, but most of the time mine is reserved, the theory being I WILL get to fire, there is no danger at all of it not getting to go, obviously this opens up the reserves can of worms (I still think DE should have reserves manipulation) hopefully your opponent is not entirely meched and/or you can either tempt something out of it’s box or failing that open it, derp strikers are fun too, obviously the bigger the units your opponent runs the better the pie torrent will be, now bear this in mind, by not taking the ravager you are three lances down, technically only one , however as you assume you will most often be in reserve you cannot bank on those lances in the early game, best value is achieved when a disembarked squad is right next to the vehicle you target the vehicle so your lances are doing something worthwhile and place the templates so the hole is on the vehicle but the template covers as much of the infantry nearby (usually get all of them) often you can net yourself a double kill this way, if you are feeling lucky there are times you can get away with deepstriking behind a tank/unit then even the str 6 is hitting AV10 , nice if the opportunity arises.
Diet humor break:
Just a note- sometimes you can and should and need set it up on the table, that’s something you will have to learn to judge for yourself. If I find myself doing it any time soon I’ll take a note of the situation.
Back to my point, as you are technically lances down you need to make sure the rest of the army can carry itself AT wise , for example I toyed with the idea of running a triple Razor list bu took raiders elsewhere and three units of Reavers to make sure some tins get opened so I can pie them, venoms did not go in the list as anti infantry should be well covered.
Hmm I think the single Rav will prob die quite early, you honestly need pairs for redundancy and to get the volume of lances required to do ‘something’ ANYTHING pleasegodwhywontitWORK!!
I would either take one or three razorwings, if taking three you need to build the list around that, DE are complex, even using the Razorwing is not simply point and click, you have to think about what you are doing, you need to get used to the fact it may not arrive when you need it , trying to set up things or it’s arrival will not always pay off but if things do come together it’s great, sometimes you will have to make the most of a bad situation and kill what you can, with the lance setup even if it does turn up and there is nothing De-meched or you can’t de mech anything for it that turn at least you have lances right ?
Incidentally I will probably swap out my Razorwing for a Shatterfield bomber when it is available as it is technically tougher than a Ravager, offers a similar statistical kill probability as a Ravager and will do pie plate storm nicely, of course it will cost a few more points but in theory at least it’s worth it as you get teh best of both worlds, maybe I’ll jiggle the list and try play testing it.
You could try play testing with a pair but making a judgment call I would say you want one or three. Three will/should impact how you build the rest of the list whereas one can be added to almost any list as long as it has solid AT already , my current list has 18 lances and 2 heat lances not including the razor (so 20 and 2 HL’s total), I pack some haywire Wyches too, as you know my own preffered setup is two Ravagers and a Razor.
On the subject of reserves, usually Ill either put as much as possible on the table (and prob reserve the razor) or reserve everything, by having only one thing in reserve it minimises the impact of fail reserves rolls on your overall game plan. likewise reserving everything ensures you should at least have some stuff come on.
I Hope that helps
Edit: there are a few guys who read this blog who know their stuff so maybe they will be able to expand/offer their experience.
personally i like using the 2 with a single ravager…. i like the mobility the razors offer over the ravager and as SS has pointed out, the pie just make for such fun…. theres no feeling like watching a Razorwing blitz through a whole squad of expensive units only for your opponent to realise you have a second one sat the other side of the board lining up for another go….
The 2 DLs will always fallback for popping Mech where required but the all-round threat means that theyre always going to be a concern, if not in receiving damage, your opponent will always be worrying about where they are in relation to their units.
To summarise, many will tell you the ravagers are better bang for buck… personally, i love playing the Razorwings on a board, theyre fun, many players arnt sure how to combat them or how much attention to pay them… and the models just look awesome belting around a board…
Hey, at the end of the day, you can can say all you want to about razorwings and ravagers but it comes down to 2 things. Tactics and player style. My personal choice is 2 d/lance ravagers and a void raven, this suits my style of play and has worked pretty well. I’d always go with ravagers over razorwings as I feel the challenge as a Deldar player is popping armour. Your list / tactics might suggest that taking out infantry is a priority, in which case razorwings would be preferrable. There’s always the choice of a voidraven with missiles, expensive but well worth it IMHO.
I’ve just won best Deldar player at the TOS (Event 2) and won all of my games. The best advice I can give is use your HS choices wisely. If you are struggling to pop mech then take Ravagers and void ravens but if hordes / infantry is your issue then take razorwings.
Good luck, and make sure you inflict pain on your oppo whatever the result!!!
Thanks for the article and the feedback Shard!
What really did it for me was when you said it comes to 2 things — tactics and player style.
First, seeing as my play style is heavily influenced by my own variant of extremely shooty Nids, I’ve found that the rarest thing is the DE codex is large blast template. Granted, splinter cannons pump out about as many wounds as spore mines but it’s still a very different application.
Second, much like Shard, I don’t really care for the standard super spammy net builds. I tend to favour slightly unorthodox combos that seem to come out of left field. Not only are they more fun to play (they have a soul…) but they also tend to just confuse the hell out of people. While they’re arguing (to themselves) how silly the combo seems to be, I’ll typically be busy doing my own thing and ignoring them while I trounce their army. That’s a story for another day.
Today’s story involves the following list, which is what I’ll be running:
5 Scourges 2 Haywire Blasters
2x 5 Trueborne | 2 DLances, 3 Blasters
1 Venom | SC, NS
10 Kabalites | 1 Blaster, 1 SC, Sybarite
1 Raider | DL, FF, NS
5 Kabalites | Blaster, Sybarite
1 Venom | SC, NS
10 Wyches | Hekatrix, Agoniser, Shardnet x2, Haywire grenades.
1 Raider | DL, FF, NS
1 Ravager | 3 DL, FF, NS
2 Razorwing | 2 DL, SC, FF, NS.
The Baron will be with the Scourge, giving them Stealth. He’ll peel off from the squad if ever anything gets too close and “occupy them”.
The Wych Raider will hang back, using the Dark Glances as much as possible until CC units get too close and then they’ll fulfill their role of aggressive bubble wrap. I expect to stall people just long enough to be wiped and then have a LOT of Lances focusing the offending unit down.
The 2 Razorwings will fulfill the role that I’ve been consistently been giving to the 6 biovores of my Nid list, bombing exposed units and sharing the curb-stomping good time that are missiles.
I’ll let you know how it all goes.
The other thing is that razorwings are much cheaper to buy, easier to paint, and cooler to show your friends :p
Let’s not forget much faster to assemble than a Ravager too. Not counting the missiles, I can’t believe how much simpler the Razorwing is to assemble.
Their scale and appearance really will round out the army quite nicely.
Such a shame you couldn’t upgrade that nose mounted weapon to a DL for 10 points, would have really made the increased price quite worthwhile…
I guess if we see some snazzy flier rules appear that increase survivability, it might be warranted, but its a hard sell versus the ravagers points-wise.
Painting one up now, and its a truly amazing model, just challenging to get a good colour scheme, my DE army is quite sombre and it’s easy to add too much colour and ruin it.
I’m trying to figure out how to magnetise the missiles to make them a bit easier to put on and off.
I agree that getting a third lance as an option would gave been quite nice. As it stainsds I’m just happy to get some long range pie. As good as splinter cannons can be, they’re still not great at clearing hordes of cheap infantry.
Once painted, even if quite vibrantly, their shape is just menace incarnate and I’m sure they’ll terrorise people no matter what.
Another aspect of the razorwings that seems to be promising is their ability to influence enemy deployment, out of fear that they might just get strafed any turn. Well see how it goes.